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Post by beaverstever on Jul 6, 2020 14:34:24 GMT -8
I'll make this a public warning. Using racist dogwhistle terms ("thugs), particularly in a blanket term for the BLM protesters as a whole, will not be tolerated. You do not have freedom of speech on a private forum. Clean it up, or we'll do it for you. Your board your rules, but I personally think you're off base here regarding thug. I looked up several dictionary definitions, none mention race. Even the Urban Dictionary! Your Google must be broken: www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=thug&page=4I understand it wouldn't be common knowledge, that's fine - the post was clarified to not be meaning as broad-brush dismissal of BLM. If you care to learn more, here's a pretty even-handed discussion on the topic: www.npr.org/2015/04/30/403362626/the-racially-charged-meaning-behind-the-word-thug
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Post by atownbeaver on Jul 6, 2020 14:39:19 GMT -8
LOL at this dude, you should do us a favor and post his recent twitter history... that will really reinforce his credibility. And yes, I am well aware SPLC faced their own discrimination scandal. I am also well aware of the fact they fired their founder and replaced him with an Asian woman and then voted to unionize...
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Post by NativeBeav on Jul 6, 2020 14:49:15 GMT -8
Not a problem. Never realized the term "thug" had any color connotations before, and definitely not "racist dogwhistle" definition. Maybe Webster's and other dictionaries need to update their definitions. But I would say the BLM folks at the park in Salem last Saturday across from the capitol building screaming at my daughter in law who was peacefully praying, when she and her group did nothing to provoke it, was thuggish behavior. If your point is that not all BLM people are like that - I get it. The BLM leader that was there on Saturday was from Mississippi - not sure why it was necessary to travel such a great distance, but whatever works. To be fair, I thought you clearly referred to the Antifa as thugs and BLM as protesters. In my mind, when I think of Antifa protesters in Portland, a white guy pops up. When I think BLM protester, I think Black. Part of my own prejudices I guess. Because for sure the protesters cross all kinds of lines in terms of skin color, gender, etc. You even have the anarchists and white supremecists intermixing and fanning the flames. Regardless of the definition put forth by MW dictionary, the term thug is loaded with negative connotations when used towards Black people. Somewhere in the 90's white people started using it as a substitute for the N word. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way. In Salem, it seems like the BLM protestors were met with counter protesters. Perhaps your SIL was caught in the "crossfire." I appreciate the benefit of doubt on the use of the word "thug" - I had no racial intentions at all - didn't even know it had been used as a substitute for the N word.
In Salem, my DIL actually I think helped avoid potential violence, by talking ahead of time to a couple of the groups that were planning on being there, and potentially causing a confrontation with BLM. She got them to agree to be peaceful, and to let the Salem area churches and outreach/ prayer groups handle it. They agreed. Actually, some of the Salem area churches are having daily services in the park until Labor Day. Looking forward to going and listening to a pastor this Friday evening, if possible with my work schedule, who happens to be African/ American. I have heard he is outstanding.
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Post by Werebeaver on Jul 6, 2020 14:53:08 GMT -8
The SPLC is a JOKE! Hahaha.
Just another arm of the DNC. FACT.
The entity that bankrupted the The United Klans of America, the White Aryan Resistance, and the Christian Knights of the KKK and has waged a 50 year long war against the Klu Klux Klan in America is "a Joke and another arm of the DNC" Gotcha. At least we are clear in knowing that the RNC would never align themselves with such absurd entities as a free legal center that *checks notes* represents victims of hate crimes in civil suits. I am glad you cleared that up for us all. Birds of a feather...
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Post by TheGlove on Jul 6, 2020 14:53:12 GMT -8
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Post by TheGlove on Jul 6, 2020 14:54:13 GMT -8
Thanks, but I knew what "dog whistle" meant. For some reason lots of folks on this board think I'm stupid, but that's ok. I guess it's how you interpret it yourself. He said Antifa thugs, not BLM, that was clear. If you don't think the Antifa are thugs, then I'm baffled and will give up. I totally don't agree with your last point using President Obama. That's the very last think I would think of if someone said that. I won't get in to what the First Lady said. Were you referencing:
Or .... Or something else, altogether?
I have ZERO problems with either quote. Why do you?
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Post by beaverstever on Jul 6, 2020 14:59:57 GMT -8
Part of the problem is that folks want to ignore the reasons for protests. Naturally, it is challenging for people to think about the social changes that need to be implemented in order to improve our society since so many people already have little to no problem with the system. So instead of looking at possibilities or solutions, they focus on the noise. They turn their attention instead to "property damage" and "looting" in order to avoid taking the protests seriously.
Back in 2008 when the market collapsed and housing went to hell, we saw what happened when families were evicted and their homes were foreclosed, but no one cried "property damage" or "looting." These families were pissed off at the system and they took it out on the house that they lost.
It happens. Frustration leads to anger. Anger leads to violence. How do we address that anger? By addressing the frustration of those who have been held back by the system.
Turning away and saying that we don't have to listen because they are protesting wrong will only increase the frustration until it spills out again.
Violence, destruction , violent crime , looting etc until they quote "get people to listen" or succumb to all of the ridiculous demands that do nothing to deal with racism. Can you even articulate what can be done other than saying we need to eliminate "systematic racism". The victimhood narrative isn't going to solve any problems its going to perpetuate them. Most people are not held back by the "system" they are held back by poor life choices regardless of race. And 99 percent of the wealth in this country was created over the last few decades, it wasn't built off the "backs" of anyone. That's a false narrative and its a fact. If you don't deal with drugs, crime, education and yes cultural issues nothing is going to change and lowering the bar isn't going to help anyone.. I hate to break the news to you but the housing crisis was enabled by people that made poor choices and a government that felt owning a home was a human right regardless of their credit worthiness (fredi and Fannie). Its time for people to take some personal responsibility for their own actions As someone who has actually sat down with POC in a corporate setting and listened to their 'demands', I have found none of them ridiculous. In fact, they all amounted to simply being treated like a normal human being. I really don't want to be drug into this, but I'll just say that some of what you say is very true. What I'd encourage you to subsequently consider/seek to understand is how there are destructive cultural elements in black culture, why there's so much propensity for destructive life choices, and why so many black youth perpetually grow up with so many factors that statistically will put them at a major disadvantage to be successful. What you will find is that many of them are out of an individual's control, and many more that are controllable, are an unrealistic burden for the statistical majority. To your point, there are very valid arguments that well-intended initiatives have actually exacerbated the problems in black communities. Depending on what bar is being lowered, that in itself can be one of those things - particularly if it reinforces a message of inferiority - and is inherently racist in itself. What is not constructive is to reject the history of the US and it's contribution to these problem, or to reject the notion that fixing these problems should be on the American citizens as a whole. Yes, it will ultimately take the individual's work to rise above, but that does not mean there's nothing for us to do.
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Post by NativeBeav on Jul 6, 2020 15:02:06 GMT -8
Not a problem. Never realized the term "thug" had any color connotations before, and definitely not "racist dogwhistle" definition. Maybe Webster's and other dictionaries need to update their definitions. But I would say the BLM folks at the park in Salem last Saturday across from the capitol building screaming at my daughter in law who was peacefully praying, when she and her group did nothing to provoke it, was thuggish behavior. If your point is that not all BLM people are like that - I get it. The BLM leader that was there on Saturday was from Mississippi - not sure why it was necessary to travel such a great distance, but whatever works. I appreciate you clarifying your reference was to those that would commit criminal behavior (stealing, looting, vandalizing) opportunistically, and not as a reference to all those associated with the cause/movements. I'll just add that someone 'screaming at your daughter-in-law' wouldn't even qualify as Webster's definition of a thug. Partially true. Yes, there was no physical violence involved, but one of the Webster synonyms is "bully". I would say screaming at someone, using frequent profanities, is being a bully.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 15:06:32 GMT -8
Violence, destruction , violent crime , looting etc until they quote "get people to listen" or succumb to all of the ridiculous demands that do nothing to deal with racism. Can you even articulate what can be done other than saying we need to eliminate "systematic racism". The victimhood narrative isn't going to solve any problems its going to perpetuate them. Most people are not held back by the "system" they are held back by poor life choices regardless of race. And 99 percent of the wealth in this country was created over the last few decades, it wasn't built off the "backs" of anyone. That's a false narrative and its a fact. If you don't deal with drugs, crime, education and yes cultural issues nothing is going to change and lowering the bar isn't going to help anyone.. I hate to break the news to you but the housing crisis was enabled by people that made poor choices and a government that felt owning a home was a human right regardless of their credit worthiness (fredi and Fannie). Its time for people to take some personal responsibility for their own actions This might qualify for the least "woke" post of the day. I suggest doing some reading on the topic of racism in the US. Perhaps the least substantive post of the day. But if you could recommend some fact based balanced reading that will enlighten me I'm all in on your recommendation. I doubt MLK would really have a problem with this post, I recommend you read some of his work you might be a bit more informed on the subject.
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Post by TheGlove on Jul 6, 2020 15:14:38 GMT -8
This might qualify for the least "woke" post of the day. I suggest doing some reading on the topic of racism in the US. Perhaps the least substantive post of the day. But if you could recommend some fact based balanced reading that will enlighten me I'm all in on your recommendation. I doubt MLK would really have a problem with this post, I recommend you read some of his work you might be a bit more informed on the subject. www.businessinsider.com/books-white-privilege-novels-racism-antiracism-black-scholars-2020-6
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Post by lebaneaver on Jul 6, 2020 15:19:20 GMT -8
I'm not a right-winger. Thanks, though.
You're the perfect example of who I was referencing.
You’re not a right-winger, and I’m Elvis.
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Post by irimi on Jul 6, 2020 15:28:50 GMT -8
Part of the problem is that folks want to ignore the reasons for protests. Naturally, it is challenging for people to think about the social changes that need to be implemented in order to improve our society since so many people already have little to no problem with the system. So instead of looking at possibilities or solutions, they focus on the noise. They turn their attention instead to "property damage" and "looting" in order to avoid taking the protests seriously.
Back in 2008 when the market collapsed and housing went to hell, we saw what happened when families were evicted and their homes were foreclosed, but no one cried "property damage" or "looting." These families were pissed off at the system and they took it out on the house that they lost.
It happens. Frustration leads to anger. Anger leads to violence. How do we address that anger? By addressing the frustration of those who have been held back by the system.
Turning away and saying that we don't have to listen because they are protesting wrong will only increase the frustration until it spills out again.
Violence, destruction , violent crime , looting etc until they quote "get people to listen" or succumb to all of the ridiculous demands that do nothing to deal with racism. Can you even articulate what can be done other than saying we need to eliminate "systematic racism". The victimhood narrative isn't going to solve any problems its going to perpetuate them. Most people are not held back by the "system" they are held back by poor life choices regardless of race. And 99 percent of the wealth in this country was created over the last few decades, it wasn't built off the "backs" of anyone. That's a false narrative and its a fact. If you don't deal with drugs, crime, education and yes cultural issues nothing is going to change and lowering the bar isn't going to help anyone.. I hate to break the news to you but the housing crisis was enabled by people that made poor choices and a government that felt owning a home was a human right regardless of their credit worthiness (fredi and Fannie). Its time for people to take some personal responsibility for their own actions First off, your initial sentence simply affirms what I wrote, so thank you for that. They are held back by poor life choices? So you can choose which neighborhood you are born into? You can choose the quality of teachers you get or the quality of school you attend? You can choose the quality of public transportation available to you? You can choose how much money your mom or dad makes and how much the rent on your family’s apartment is? Choice = privilege. The cause of the housing crisis was greed, plain and simple. But I don’t care about the cause. I was comparing the result to show you that destruction of property is common when people get frustrated and feel held back by the system. If you want a different example, perhaps the Boston Tea Party might ring a bell. What right did those rebels have to dump overboard all that tea?! The poor tea shops in the colonies probably went bankrupt. Didn’t anybody care? (Sounds like a snowflake, to me.) Might I suggest that you get a copy of Ibram X. Kendi’s book “Stamped from the Beginning”?
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Post by irimi on Jul 6, 2020 15:37:28 GMT -8
I'm not a right-winger. Thanks, though.
You're the perfect example of who I was referencing.
You’re not a right-winger, and I’m Elvis. Perhaps he means that he is a far-right winger. The right-wing is too central for him.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 15:44:39 GMT -8
They are held back by poor life choices? So you can choose which neighborhood you are born into? You can choose the quality of teachers you get or the quality of school you attend? You can choose the quality of public transportation available to you? You can choose how much money your mom or dad makes and how much the rent on your family’s apartment is? Choice = privilege. What you wrote above can apply to anyone/everyone who's not wealthy and also depending on the location they live (among about 20 other factors you didn't address).
^^^ Is that your idea of "white privilege"? ^^^
Did you have an actual point?
Exactly. But that's not the narrative people want to hear
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 15:54:17 GMT -8
Which ones have you read and would recommend. All of them?
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