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Post by zeroposter on Aug 2, 2020 10:44:21 GMT -8
Union church did screw the pooch. But pull your head out and examine the demographics in the other counties. It is not an easy problem to solve in those counties as State and local leaders have acknowledged without totally destroying on a long term basis the local economies as well as really hurting certain, already economically disadvantaged, segments of the population. You say, "mask-social distancing guidelines that are easy for Lebanon or Bend people in general to follow." I asked why is it easy to do this in Lebanon or Bend but not in Eastern Oregon counties. You state "pull your head out and examine the demographics." I understand you want to defend your home area. I'm not being condescending. Is there something I'm missing that makes it difficult to social distance and wear a mask in, for example, Hermiston or Baker City? If you are only trolling, feel free to insult or ignore. Go up to Umatilla and tell the tribes that those cultural and social gatherings they have had for centuries are taboo. Tribal leaders are actually making progress in this, but the outbreaks are present. Then drive over to Hermiston or Irrigon or Ontario and tell the Hispanic population that they can't live in crowded conditions or carpool in large numbers or have their traditional, extended, family and friend gatherings. And the migrant workers from known hotspots, many who have came to those areas for generations, can't come to the agriculture areas. Go ahead and solve these problems with a mask mandate. Finally, stop again in Ontario and release the prisoners from the correctional facility. This may be popular with some anyway.
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Post by ag87 on Aug 2, 2020 11:04:03 GMT -8
I thought the indigenous people were doing a good job at the basics (they had to because of the high percentage of pre-existing conditions.) I've only seen news reports of tribes in the Dakotas and Arizona. I'm far from an expert. I'm extremely familiar with the "Hispanic population." My wife's first language is the Peruvian version of Spanish and we spend half the year in Mexico. In fairness, it's Ensenada and that's give or take 50% Mexico and 50% USA. In the past, I've lived in Puebla but have never been to Oaxaca or Central America. Regarding the prisons, (the term correctional facility is ridiculous and false) that is more of a problem. My take is populations should be reduced, all new inmates should be quarantined, and guards better be wearing face masks. Thanks for your response.
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Post by irimi on Aug 2, 2020 11:30:18 GMT -8
You say, "mask-social distancing guidelines that are easy for Lebanon or Bend people in general to follow." I asked why is it easy to do this in Lebanon or Bend but not in Eastern Oregon counties. You state "pull your head out and examine the demographics." I understand you want to defend your home area. I'm not being condescending. Is there something I'm missing that makes it difficult to social distance and wear a mask in, for example, Hermiston or Baker City? If you are only trolling, feel free to insult or ignore. Go up to Umatilla and tell the tribes that those cultural and social gatherings they have had for centuries are taboo. Tribal leaders are actually making progress in this, but the outbreaks are present. Then drive over to Hermiston or Irrigon or Ontario and tell the Hispanic population that they can't live in crowded conditions or carpool in large numbers or have their traditional, extended, family and friend gatherings. And the migrant workers from known hotspots, many who have came to those areas for generations, can't come to the agriculture areas. Go ahead and solve these problems with a mask mandate. Finally, stop again in Ontario and release the prisoners from the correctional facility. This may be popular with some anyway. So what you are saying is that in eastern Washington is being spread through the minorities, and that the White people there have no difficulty with wearing masks and keeping socially distant?
What you describe is hardly different from the rest of the state. In Marion County, the city of Woodburn, with its high Hispanic population, has consistently been one of the state's hot spots for COVID. Granted, there are many reasons for this, but mostly due to their undocumented status and the lack of affordable housing, health care, and a fair wage.
But even still, it's the 260 pound ignorant White cuss I saw yesterday out at the store arguing about his "right" not to wear a mask that confound me. Hispanics, Native Americans, Russians, I can forgive them and even empathize with them.
It's pretty clear that those who don't wear a mask out in public are just looking for the attention. Their ego is so small that they need to be the center of attention.
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Post by zeroposter on Aug 2, 2020 11:32:00 GMT -8
Ag87, I may be wrong, but I thought you had some Central Oregon ties. This is not directly related to the thread, but Warm Springs is in a 2 week lockdown. They have done well, but the 3, semi-large gatherings in the community have resulted in 3 spikes. The positive rate is around 2.5% which isn't terrible, but it isn't great considering the population is dispersed. In an odd coincidence, the tribal leader's wife died from the virus at the Bend memory care facility which has been our big outbreak. Sad day for Warm Springs though she was long term memory care and recent hospice patient. Anyway, it is my understanding that the Umatilla tribes have similar numbers.
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Post by ag87 on Aug 2, 2020 11:43:17 GMT -8
Ag87, I may be wrong, but I thought you had some Central Oregon ties. This is not directly related to the thread, but Warm Springs is in a 2 week lockdown. They have done well, but the 3, semi-large gatherings in the community have resulted in 3 spikes. The positive rate is around 2.5% which isn't terrible, but it isn't great considering the population is dispersed. In an odd coincidence, the tribal leader's wife died from the virus at the Bend memory care facility which has been our big outbreak. Sad day for Warm Springs though she was long term memory care and recent hospice patient. Anyway, it is my understanding that the Umatilla tribes have similar numbers. I don't have any Central Oregon ties. I've been to Bend enough but so has everybody. I did a lot of ODOT consulting work in Lakeview and some in Klamath. I'm not sure how the people in Lakeview see themselves. It's kind of its own world.
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Post by blackbug on Aug 2, 2020 15:44:05 GMT -8
The bottom line is except for the Union County breakout due to the church. The eastern counties did not do anything different than any other in Oregon. I have traveled throughout Idaho, Washington and Oregon during the pandemic. The people and counties were virtually the same in action towards the pandemic. You can say that the Idaho government has been more lenient in rules, but this only strengthens the point that the outbreak in Umatilla county has nothing to do with the negligence of the people.
The real issue in Umatilla County has been migrant workers and how to deal with the spread brought in through and proliferated through this method.
This is why the disease incidence is significantly greater on the west side of the county.
To say or insinuate that the rural eastern counties brought this on themselves is wrong.
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Post by lebaneaver on Aug 2, 2020 17:12:28 GMT -8
The bottom line is except for the Union County breakout due to the church. The eastern counties did not do anything different than any other in Oregon. I have traveled throughout Idaho, Washington and Oregon during the pandemic. The people and counties were virtually the same in action towards the pandemic. You can say that the Idaho government has been more lenient in rules, but this only strengthens the point that the outbreak in Umatilla county has nothing to do with the negligence of the people. The real issue in Umatilla County has been migrant workers and how to deal with the spread brought in through and proliferated through this method. This is why the disease incidence is significantly greater on the west side of the county. To say or insinuate that the rural eastern counties brought this on themselves is wrong. Understandable. Different issues in different regions of the state AND the states. My brother lives in Bend. Before the mandate, the use of masks and social distancing depended very much on location. He’s an appraiser, and travels the Bend, Redmond and La Pine areas. As he says, “Pretty much distinctive and unique communities.” Some, still believe it’s a hoax, or a sham, or overkill. Tough, tough, thing to deal with when so many can’t agree.
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Post by lebaneaver on Aug 2, 2020 18:30:09 GMT -8
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Post by Mike84 on Aug 5, 2020 5:20:48 GMT -8
Perspective on the last six months in Oregon Covid deaths: 325 Other deaths 16,800 Is there something amiss here or are we just all forgetting the other issues that impact us more than the Covid. Interesting use of the word "perspective". How many of those 16,800 other deaths could any of us have helped prevent by our personal actions over the past few months? How many were from old age, decades-long diseases, and other causes that neither I nor you nor anyone else could do anything to prevent? ALL of the covid-19 deaths (which are up to 333 as of yesterday) were caused by the spread of a virus in the past 7-9 months. In every case, someone had to give it to others, who gave it to others, until eventually people died. By shutting down, distancing, wearing a mask, we can each try to help prevent a death. This is the rare case where we can do something to help. THAT is the perspective people need to have.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Aug 5, 2020 11:15:38 GMT -8
Perspective on the last six months in Oregon Covid deaths: 325 Other deaths 16,800 Is there something amiss here or are we just all forgetting the other issues that impact us more than the Covid. Interesting use of the word "perspective". How many of those 16,800 other deaths could any of us have helped prevent by our personal actions over the past few months? How many were from old age, decades-long diseases, and other causes that neither I nor you nor anyone else could do anything to prevent? ALL of the covid-19 deaths (which are up to 333 as of yesterday) were caused by the spread of a virus in the past 7-9 months. In every case, someone had to give it to others, who gave it to others, until eventually people died. By shutting down, distancing, wearing a mask, we can each try to help prevent a death. This is the rare case where we can do something to help. THAT is the perspective people need to have. Most diabetes, most cancers and most cardiac conditions are considered to be lifestyle choices which could have been prevented by our personal actions. Granted those are personal choices generally made over a longer span than a few months, so changing outcomes by a couple months of discipline would be much less likely than with Covid-19. The real reason the US has such a large number of cases and deaths is we have 52 million people over 65 years of age (can't do much about that), the highest diabetes frequency of all developed countries and by far the highest level of obesity of all developed countries. We probably have the highest rate/numbers of co-morbidities in the world.. and people are still reluctant to do the things you've mentioned to help stem the disease. I kind of doubt people in the country as a whole will ever do what it takes to drop our obesity level, thereby dropping many/most of the other major factors of death, but it would be nice if people would bend enough to slow down covid.
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Post by beaver55to7 on Aug 5, 2020 13:14:17 GMT -8
Perspective on the last six months in Oregon Covid deaths: 325 Other deaths 16,800 Is there something amiss here or are we just all forgetting the other issues that impact us more than the Covid. Interesting use of the word "perspective". How many of those 16,800 other deaths could any of us have helped prevent by our personal actions over the past few months? How many were from old age, decades-long diseases, and other causes that neither I nor you nor anyone else could do anything to prevent? ALL of the covid-19 deaths (which are up to 333 as of yesterday) were caused by the spread of a virus in the past 7-9 months. In every case, someone had to give it to others, who gave it to others, until eventually people died. By shutting down, distancing, wearing a mask, we can each try to help prevent a death. This is the rare case where we can do something to help. THAT is the perspective people need to have. Well, by that logic we will need to mask up all the time forever because the Flu isn't going away and it kills more Oregonians in a year then Covid has so far...and it kills those people year after year after year so the grand total is MUCH bigger then Covid. And I guess we should all drive 20 mph on the freeways and roads at all times, because if no one ever drove over 20mph no one would ever die on an Oregon road. And we can shut down all construction sites because people die building things...etc etc etc. In all things, risk needs to be balanced with cost. To say we will stop all things to prevent even one Covid death is not balanced. To say we won't do anything to prevent Covid deaths is also not balanced. Debating what that balance point is is completely fair, jumping on a high horse and coming at others like they have no regard for human life because their balance point is different then yours is not fair.
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Post by mbabeav on Aug 5, 2020 14:15:30 GMT -8
The argument here is focusing on deaths, when for every death there are many more people who have complications, some which will be life long. And all the resources that our system tries to provide to balance/minimize excess "inventory" of capacity, medicine and the doctors/nurses et al had been carefully calculated and have long lead times to increase. You can debate all you want, but if the stuff ain't there to deal with "just a few extra" as some have called this situation, it ain't readily supplied. Just-in-Time processes collapse when the demand is higher than the pipeline is able to provide.
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Post by beaver55to7 on Aug 5, 2020 14:44:10 GMT -8
The argument here is focusing on deaths, when for every death there are many more people who have complications, some which will be life long. And all the resources that our system tries to provide to balance/minimize excess "inventory" of capacity, medicine and the doctors/nurses et al had been carefully calculated and have long lead times to increase. You can debate all you want, but if the stuff ain't there to deal with "just a few extra" as some have called this situation, it ain't readily supplied. Just-in-Time processes collapse when the demand is higher than the pipeline is able to provide. Do you have actual data on the complication rate...I mean you say 'for every death there are many more people who have complications'. That sounds important but is clearly vague enough to be meaningless. What is a complication (fatigue for a month? Losing a lung)? What is many more? What is a life long complication? How many people as a percent of those positive have life long complications? Seems awful early to say a complication is lifelong, and not just extended temporary. Is this just doomscrolling, or do you have actual scientific evidence?
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Post by beaver55to7 on Aug 5, 2020 14:58:56 GMT -8
The argument here is focusing on deaths, when for every death there are many more people who have complications, some which will be life long. And all the resources that our system tries to provide to balance/minimize excess "inventory" of capacity, medicine and the doctors/nurses et al had been carefully calculated and have long lead times to increase. You can debate all you want, but if the stuff ain't there to deal with "just a few extra" as some have called this situation, it ain't readily supplied. Just-in-Time processes collapse when the demand is higher than the pipeline is able to provide. Do you have actual data on the complication rate...I mean you say 'for every death there are many more people who have complications'. That sounds important but is clearly vague enough to be meaningless. What is a complication (fatigue for a month? Losing a lung)? What is many more? What is a life long complication? How many people as a percent of those positive have life long complications? Seems awful early to say a complication is lifelong, and not just extended temporary. Is this just doomscrolling, or do you have actual scientific evidence? and that is just a weird point to make on a freaking Football message board. I can't think of any thing in life that leads to more life long complications then playing football through your college years. I would guess lifelong complications from playing football are close to 100% of college players. Something is going to hurt for the rest of their life, and for some the brain ain't going to work normal for the rest of their life. Is that ok because they choose it? Because I guess 250,000 people are choosing to go to Sturgis next week, so is it ok if they get lifelong complications...because the choose it???
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Post by Mike84 on Aug 5, 2020 16:58:54 GMT -8
Interesting use of the word "perspective". How many of those 16,800 other deaths could any of us have helped prevent by our personal actions over the past few months? How many were from old age, decades-long diseases, and other causes that neither I nor you nor anyone else could do anything to prevent? ALL of the covid-19 deaths (which are up to 333 as of yesterday) were caused by the spread of a virus in the past 7-9 months. In every case, someone had to give it to others, who gave it to others, until eventually people died. By shutting down, distancing, wearing a mask, we can each try to help prevent a death. This is the rare case where we can do something to help. THAT is the perspective people need to have. Well, by that logic we will need to mask up all the time forever because the Flu isn't going away and it kills more Oregonians in a year then Covid has so far...and it kills those people year after year after year so the grand total is MUCH bigger then Covid. And I guess we should all drive 20 mph on the freeways and roads at all times, because if no one ever drove over 20mph no one would ever die on an Oregon road. And we can shut down all construction sites because people die building things...etc etc etc. In all things, risk needs to be balanced with cost. To say we will stop all things to prevent even one Covid death is not balanced. To say we won't do anything to prevent Covid deaths is also not balanced. Debating what that balance point is is completely fair, jumping on a high horse and coming at others like they have no regard for human life because their balance point is different then yours is not fair. If we're going to discuss the balance point then we need relevant data. It is not relevant to show that "only" 2% of the deaths in Oregon so far this year have been directly from Covid-19. Covid-19 is not a mystery like cancer often is. It is not a result of somebody's lifelong choices. It is not an "accident". It is directly and only related to the spread of a virus that we can, fortunately, do things to slow down. When we are trying to decide if we can or should take certain actions to slow that spread, it doesn't matter that more people have died from things we can't directly affect. It only matters that our actions can reduce the deaths from Covid-19, which are significant. That was my point.
As for other sacrifices we make to prevent people from dying, we DO take actions to stop the Flu and traffic accidents. We get flu shots not only to protect ourselves but to protect others. We don't go to work when we think we have the flu not only because we would rather be home resting but because we don't want to spread it to others. We avoid speeding too much not only to avoid getting a ticket but also so we are not a danger to others on the road.
Some people seem to want to treat fighting the spread of Covid-19 as a personal choice, like the choice to play football. But football injuries cannot be spread from the person who made the choice to some innocent bystander by breathing on them. And even if they could be, football injuries are not invisible like is sometimes the case with asymptomatic Covid-19 carriers. Nobody knows who is a danger. This has to be a group effort or it will not work. When trying to find the balance point, it sure seems like that is a key factor.
But, even though I don't feel like I said anything especially debatable, this is still a matter of opinion. I don't want to turn this into a big argument, especially on a football board.
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