|
Post by spudbeaver on Aug 5, 2020 19:16:29 GMT -8
Well, by that logic we will need to mask up all the time forever because the Flu isn't going away and it kills more Oregonians in a year then Covid has so far...and it kills those people year after year after year so the grand total is MUCH bigger then Covid. And I guess we should all drive 20 mph on the freeways and roads at all times, because if no one ever drove over 20mph no one would ever die on an Oregon road. And we can shut down all construction sites because people die building things...etc etc etc. In all things, risk needs to be balanced with cost. To say we will stop all things to prevent even one Covid death is not balanced. To say we won't do anything to prevent Covid deaths is also not balanced. Debating what that balance point is is completely fair, jumping on a high horse and coming at others like they have no regard for human life because their balance point is different then yours is not fair. If we're going to discuss the balance point then we need relevant data. It is not relevant to show that "only" 2% of the deaths in Oregon so far this year have been directly from Covid-19. Covid-19 is not a mystery like cancer often is. It is not a result of somebody's lifelong choices. It is not an "accident". It is directly and only related to the spread of a virus that we can, fortunately, do things to slow down. When we are trying to decide if we can or should take certain actions to slow that spread, it doesn't matter that more people have died from things we can't directly affect. It only matters that our actions can reduce the deaths from Covid-19, which are significant. That was my point.
As for other sacrifices we make to prevent people from dying, we DO take actions to stop the Flu and traffic accidents. We get flu shots not only to protect ourselves but to protect others. We don't go to work when we think we have the flu not only because we would rather be home resting but because we don't want to spread it to others. We avoid speeding too much not only to avoid getting a ticket but also so we are not a danger to others on the road.
Some people seem to want to treat fighting the spread of Covid-19 as a personal choice, like the choice to play football. But football injuries cannot be spread from the person who made the choice to some innocent bystander by breathing on them. And even if they could be, football injuries are not invisible like is sometimes the case with asymptomatic Covid-19 carriers. Nobody knows who is a danger. This has to be a group effort or it will not work. When trying to find the balance point, it sure seems like that is a key factor.
But, even though I don't feel like I said anything especially debatable, this is still a matter of opinion. I don't want to turn this into a big argument, especially on a football board.
Welcome back, but I have to say I for one am a little surprised at the angle you came back in. Good to see you post in any case.
|
|
|
Post by Ruh Roh Beav on Aug 5, 2020 19:47:14 GMT -8
The argument here is focusing on deaths, when for every death there are many more people who have complications, some which will be life long. And all the resources that our system tries to provide to balance/minimize excess "inventory" of capacity, medicine and the doctors/nurses et al had been carefully calculated and have long lead times to increase. You can debate all you want, but if the stuff ain't there to deal with "just a few extra" as some have called this situation, it ain't readily supplied. Just-in-Time processes collapse when the demand is higher than the pipeline is able to provide. While you are at it, let’s also discuss the economic impact that so many people have experienced thru job losses, businesses destroyed, these losses will forever impact the working families. We tend to focus on one specific side of this issue it seems like. So yeah there’s a balance, I own a business and have gone to great strides to continue to employ my co-workers.....allowing remote work and realizing the inefficiency of this. A lot of people don’t get this choice and are just scrapping by if that.
|
|
|
Post by Ruh Roh Beav on Aug 5, 2020 19:55:23 GMT -8
Perspective on the last six months in Oregon Covid deaths: 325 Other deaths 16,800 Is there something amiss here or are we just all forgetting the other issues that impact us more than the Covid. Interesting use of the word "perspective". How many of those 16,800 other deaths could any of us have helped prevent by our personal actions over the past few months? How many were from old age, decades-long diseases, and other causes that neither I nor you nor anyone else could do anything to prevent? ALL of the covid-19 deaths (which are up to 333 as of yesterday) were caused by the spread of a virus in the past 7-9 months. In every case, someone had to give it to others, who gave it to others, until eventually people died. By shutting down, distancing, wearing a mask, we can each try to help prevent a death. This is the rare case where we can do something to help. THAT is the perspective people need to have. Again you don’t bring up the impact on the working families....they often get by paycheck to paycheck....losing their jobs burdens these people....seen the food lines when we were asked to shutdown by our governor....i don’t agree with the shutdown that you call for. Maybe you’re retired and don’t have this worry ....I’m guessing a few on this board are retired and you don’t have to worry about where the next meal is going to come from but most people need to work to cover their means
|
|
|
Post by Mike84 on Aug 5, 2020 21:46:14 GMT -8
Interesting use of the word "perspective". How many of those 16,800 other deaths could any of us have helped prevent by our personal actions over the past few months? How many were from old age, decades-long diseases, and other causes that neither I nor you nor anyone else could do anything to prevent? ALL of the covid-19 deaths (which are up to 333 as of yesterday) were caused by the spread of a virus in the past 7-9 months. In every case, someone had to give it to others, who gave it to others, until eventually people died. By shutting down, distancing, wearing a mask, we can each try to help prevent a death. This is the rare case where we can do something to help. THAT is the perspective people need to have. Again you don’t bring up the impact on the working families....they often get by paycheck to paycheck....losing their jobs burdens these people....seen the food lines when we were asked to shutdown by our governor....i don’t agree with the shutdown that you call for. Maybe you’re retired and don’t have this worry ....I’m guessing a few on this board are retired and you don’t have to worry about where the next meal is going to come from but most people need to work to cover their means Well, not really "again", since that was my first post on the subject. :-) To clarify, when I listed "shutting down" as one of the things we could do to slow the virus and help prevent more deaths, I didn't mean it was the only option. Also, there are different levels of "shutting down". I was referring to the level of what we had done already, not indicating we needed to shut down even more than that. We just have to be very, very careful about what we turn back on and how quickly, in my opinion. I've been very, very fortunate in that my wife and I have kept our jobs (able to work from home). I understand that people need to get back to work. To achieve that goal, it is more important than ever that we try to show that the virus can be slowed even as we try to restart the economy. That makes masks and distancing and other non-economic actions like them even more critical. We are not going to enable turning the economy back on by trying to just jump in to "life as normal". Also, those of us fortunate enough to have not suffered the loss of income need to try to find ways to help others survive. We're eating more restaurant food than ever, ordering out and focusing on the small local places that are struggling to survive. We give extra big tips when we do. I don't think opening bars is a good idea but I went to one that also served food, got a food order to go and they were then able to sell (bottles) of alcohol with it. We've bought gift certificates from local businesses that have not been able to re-open yet, to try to help them survive the dark times. There are ways we can battle both the virus and the economic impacts, while trying to navigate the fine line as a country. That is my only point, I guess.
|
|
|
Post by irimi on Aug 6, 2020 5:58:55 GMT -8
Do you have actual data on the complication rate...I mean you say 'for every death there are many more people who have complications'. That sounds important but is clearly vague enough to be meaningless. What is a complication (fatigue for a month? Losing a lung)? What is many more? What is a life long complication? How many people as a percent of those positive have life long complications? Seems awful early to say a complication is lifelong, and not just extended temporary. Is this just doomscrolling, or do you have actual scientific evidence? and that is just a weird point to make on a freaking Football message board. I can't think of any thing in life that leads to more life long complications then playing football through your college years. I would guess lifelong complications from playing football are close to 100% of college players. Something is going to hurt for the rest of their life, and for some the brain ain't going to work normal for the rest of their life. Is that ok because they choose it? Because I guess 250,000 people are choosing to go to Sturgis next week, so is it ok if they get lifelong complications...because the choose it??? It seems logical that if a person chooses to participate in an activity while completely understanding the risks, then it should be their decision and people should butt out. Like playing football or even riding a motorcycle. There is an element of risk that the participant knows of and accepts fully even if he/she thinks it can never happen to him/her. But COVID is different. Yes, there is a risk to an individual, but there's a greater risk to society. The longer we keep this thing alive and moving through our society, the greater the price will be for our country. Why? Simple. Economically, our country has fallen on hard times. I'm pretty sure we can weather them with thoughtful leadership and by tightening our belts. And as soon as the virus is gone, we can bounce back. Medically, our hospitals have yet to get overrun like in Italy, but without proper precautions it is sure to happen. Further, our medical staff has been fighting this virus for half a year now, and they sort of deserve a break as well as a modicum of respect--respect that can be shown by wearing a simple mask. If a quarter of a million people ride to Sturgis, they are not simply endangering themselves. Each of those riders will head back home, probably feeling fine. If only 5 are infected, then they take that virus back to their hometowns and their homes where they interact with people who did not make the selfish decision to put their own pleasure ahead of the best interest of society. The virus thrives on our selfish behavior.
|
|
|
Post by bucktoothvarmit on Aug 6, 2020 6:38:59 GMT -8
"And as soon as the virus is gone, we can bounce back."
I wish it were that "simple". Most experts don't see this virus going anywhere soon, if ever. The new reality is to figure out how to "bounce back" while living in a covid-19 world.
Go Beavs!!
|
|
|
Post by Ruh Roh Beav on Aug 6, 2020 6:56:34 GMT -8
Again you don’t bring up the impact on the working families....they often get by paycheck to paycheck....losing their jobs burdens these people....seen the food lines when we were asked to shutdown by our governor....i don’t agree with the shutdown that you call for. Maybe you’re retired and don’t have this worry ....I’m guessing a few on this board are retired and you don’t have to worry about where the next meal is going to come from but most people need to work to cover their means Well, not really "again", since that was my first post on the subject. :-) To clarify, when I listed "shutting down" as one of the things we could do to slow the virus and help prevent more deaths, I didn't mean it was the only option. Also, there are different levels of "shutting down". I was referring to the level of what we had done already, not indicating we needed to shut down even more than that. We just have to be very, very careful about what we turn back on and how quickly, in my opinion. I've been very, very fortunate in that my wife and I have kept our jobs (able to work from home). I understand that people need to get back to work. To achieve that goal, it is more important than ever that we try to show that the virus can be slowed even as we try to restart the economy. That makes masks and distancing and other non-economic actions like them even more critical. We are not going to enable turning the economy back on by trying to just jump in to "life as normal". Also, those of us fortunate enough to have not suffered the loss of income need to try to find ways to help others survive. We're eating more restaurant food than ever, ordering out and focusing on the small local places that are struggling to survive. We give extra big tips when we do. I don't think opening bars is a good idea but I went to one that also served food, got a food order to go and they were then able to sell (bottles) of alcohol with it. We've bought gift certificates from local businesses that have not been able to re-open yet, to try to help them survive the dark times. There are ways we can battle both the virus and the economic impacts, while trying to navigate the fine line as a country. That is my only point, I guess. appreciate your take....I agree with what you are striving for and have taken similar approaches myself. There’s no easy way around this....wish there was but it kicks a person right back down when you try to catch your breath....damn it...
|
|
|
Post by ochobeavo on Aug 6, 2020 9:05:08 GMT -8
Well, not really "again", since that was my first post on the subject. :-) To clarify, when I listed "shutting down" as one of the things we could do to slow the virus and help prevent more deaths, I didn't mean it was the only option. Also, there are different levels of "shutting down". I was referring to the level of what we had done already, not indicating we needed to shut down even more than that. We just have to be very, very careful about what we turn back on and how quickly, in my opinion. I've been very, very fortunate in that my wife and I have kept our jobs (able to work from home). I understand that people need to get back to work. To achieve that goal, it is more important than ever that we try to show that the virus can be slowed even as we try to restart the economy. That makes masks and distancing and other non-economic actions like them even more critical. We are not going to enable turning the economy back on by trying to just jump in to "life as normal". Also, those of us fortunate enough to have not suffered the loss of income need to try to find ways to help others survive. We're eating more restaurant food than ever, ordering out and focusing on the small local places that are struggling to survive. We give extra big tips when we do. I don't think opening bars is a good idea but I went to one that also served food, got a food order to go and they were then able to sell (bottles) of alcohol with it. We've bought gift certificates from local businesses that have not been able to re-open yet, to try to help them survive the dark times. There are ways we can battle both the virus and the economic impacts, while trying to navigate the fine line as a country. That is my only point, I guess. appreciate your take....I agree with what you are striving for and have taken similar approaches myself. There’s no easy way around this....wish there was but it kicks a person right back down when you try to catch your breath....damn it... If only there were multiple success cases around the world for us to leverage from. ( insert sarcasm font) I work closely with 2 companies in S. Korea and they should be the flagship for flattening the curve and reopening the economy successfully. From an immediate government response, to engaging private sector to assist in testing, to citizens taking absolute personal responsibility - it's all paying off. The Korean version of the CDC actually began working on diagnostic tests before they even had their first confirmed case in January. I'd say that's being proactive and circling the wagons. Employees of a German company I work with had a pretty similar story to tell...with probably the key difference being a very strong financial assist from their government offsetting mandatory reduced working hours through the remainder of 2020. Anyhow, this isn't really directed at you Ruh Roh.. Just general frustration from a guy who had a high school graduate get hosed, a college wrestler who has no idea if and when wrestling comes back, a sibling's wedding on hold, multiple travel plans thwarted and working from home until who knows when. I know we are all in the same boat and I really shouldn't complain since I'm healthy, my extended family is healthy and my job is secure, but it's a message board so I'm going to vent just for today.
|
|