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Post by obf on Aug 12, 2020 9:50:59 GMT -8
Well... 60% of Covid positive cases, regardless of severity of symptoms, resulting in Myocarditis would certainly change the equation... Especially for student athletes who's entire future in the sport, let alone their life, could be crushed by lingering scar tissue from a heart infection. Here is a good article about it and the Power 5 conferences struggling with this new information. Burried in it is the german study that found 60 out of 100 cases had active myocarditis. Granted it is a tiny study, but it is still alarming. FWIW, you can get myocarditis even from something as simple as the common cold, but of course at teeny tiny rates. 60% is a crazy high rate.
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Post by mbabeav on Aug 12, 2020 10:36:49 GMT -8
Well... 60% of Covid positive cases, regardless of severity of symptoms, resulting in Myocarditis would certainly change the equation... Especially for student athletes who's entire future in the sport, let alone their life, could be crushed by lingering scar tissue from a heart infection. Here is a good article about it and the Power 5 conferences struggling with this new information. Burried in it is the german study that found 60 out of 100 cases had active myocarditis. Granted it is a tiny study, but it is still alarming. FWIW, you can get myocarditis even from something as simple as the common cold, but of course at teeny tiny rates. 60% is a crazy high rate. Sounds like if you are headed to medical school, the specialty of choice might be cardiologist. This is the type of stuff that makes liability wavers and parents come into play and that might outweigh the influence of the coaches and their teams.
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Post by OriginalWhizzinator on Aug 12, 2020 10:43:54 GMT -8
Man, the more they find out about this virus, the crazier and scarier it gets. It can be a really nasty virus, even if you survive and recover. Heart issues are nothing to mess around with, even for young people. Remember Fred Thompson (RIP).
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Post by atownbeaver on Aug 12, 2020 10:55:12 GMT -8
Well... 60% of Covid positive cases, regardless of severity of symptoms, resulting in Myocarditis would certainly change the equation... Especially for student athletes who's entire future in the sport, let alone their life, could be crushed by lingering scar tissue from a heart infection. Here is a good article about it and the Power 5 conferences struggling with this new information. Burried in it is the german study that found 60 out of 100 cases had active myocarditis. Granted it is a tiny study, but it is still alarming. FWIW, you can get myocarditis even from something as simple as the common cold, but of course at teeny tiny rates. 60% is a crazy high rate. COVID is capable of actively infecting the heart. While it is a respiratory disease primarily, the Heart, Lungs, Kidneys and Intestines all have ACE2 receptors that allow the virus to gain entry to the cell, and damage those cells. Repiratory therapy is a good job to get into because COVID is causing 10s of thousands of people to have long term lung damage. There is risk of long term damage from an COVID infection, period. It just is not something worth rolling the dice on when there is every indication that in a few months we will have readily available vaccines. In the face of that, it is indefensibly stupid to continue on, when you can just pause a couple months, then continue under significantly safer conditions. I was reading some thread on Reddit about how that Florida sheriff issued a no-mask policy, not just saying it is your choice and he won't enforce wearing a mask, but actively is enforcing NOT wearing one... It is incomprehensible stupidity. All it takes is one employee getting sick to sue the life out of that department, because he put on paper a policy to refuse to allow a preventative measure. The liability he is exposing himself to make a weak-sauce political statement is crazy. College football is staring down the barrel of the same liability. forcing exposure with inadequate protection that could result in long term damage. No wonder employer liability protections was the top priority for Senate Republicans in the stalled stimulus package. They all know the threat is real. So does the Pac-12 and Big-10 ADs. they aren't pussies (mega eye-roll...) they are smart.
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Post by beaverstever on Aug 12, 2020 10:55:52 GMT -8
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Post by OriginalWhizzinator on Aug 12, 2020 12:12:05 GMT -8
Pat Forde’s article had a pretty stunning quote from college sports lawyer Tom Mars: www.si.com/college/2020/08/12/ncaa-football-divide-big-ten-pac-12-sec-big-12“Whatever conference(s) decides to play football this fall will be taking a ridiculously high risk they may soon regret. I know and have talked with some of the best plaintiff’s lawyers in the country this week, and they’re praying the SEC, Big 12 and/or the ACC are greedy enough to stay the course. If things go sideways, the plaintiff’s Bar will immediately get their hands on the internal financial analyses of the schools (a FOIA layup), get the conference financials through the discovery process, and then just stand in front of the jurors and point to the conferences that decided not to risk the health of their student-athletes. Good Lord, I’d hate to be the lawyers defending those cases.” And the attorneys lining up to represent plaintiffs? “These are lawyers who’ve already slain bigger dragons than the SEC, and they can afford to finance the most expensive litigation on the planet. As a coalition, they’d be the legal equivalent of the Death Star.” Sleep well, Big 12, ACC and SEC leaders.“ This is why I believe the other conferences will eventually come around to the same decision. SEC fans might be majority hayseed morons, but there are still a few lawyers in the South.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Aug 12, 2020 12:57:07 GMT -8
Pat Forde’s article had a pretty stunning quote from college sports lawyer Tom Mars: www.si.com/college/2020/08/12/ncaa-football-divide-big-ten-pac-12-sec-big-12“Whatever conference(s) decides to play football this fall will be taking a ridiculously high risk they may soon regret. I know and have talked with some of the best plaintiff’s lawyers in the country this week, and they’re praying the SEC, Big 12 and/or the ACC are greedy enough to stay the course. If things go sideways, the plaintiff’s Bar will immediately get their hands on the internal financial analyses of the schools (a FOIA layup), get the conference financials through the discovery process, and then just stand in front of the jurors and point to the conferences that decided not to risk the health of their student-athletes. Good Lord, I’d hate to be the lawyers defending those cases.” And the attorneys lining up to represent plaintiffs? “These are lawyers who’ve already slain bigger dragons than the SEC, and they can afford to finance the most expensive litigation on the planet. As a coalition, they’d be the legal equivalent of the Death Star.” Sleep well, Big 12, ACC and SEC leaders.“ This is why I believe the other conferences will eventually come around to the same decision. SEC fans might be majority hayseed morons, but there are still a few lawyers in the South. As a man who grew up in the Grass Seed Capital of the World, your phraseology is offensive. SEC fans are, by and large, great people. I liked his 2006 College World Series article, but Pat Forde is generally a complete idiot. FOIA would apply to most schools but not all. Tom Mars is a great attorney, but he has been at Walmart corporate a long time. Walmart is not the SEC. I doubt that they would be treated the same or even similarly. If a Plaintiff is pitching a case to a jury composed mostly of SEC fans, are those jurors really going to ding their school or the conference? I doubt it. If you could get a case against an SEC school that crossed state lines to let's say Illinois, New Mexico, New York, Oklahoma or Virginia. I think that a Plaintiff could make hay in one of those jurisdictions.
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Post by atownbeaver on Aug 12, 2020 13:07:38 GMT -8
Pat Forde’s article had a pretty stunning quote from college sports lawyer Tom Mars: www.si.com/college/2020/08/12/ncaa-football-divide-big-ten-pac-12-sec-big-12“Whatever conference(s) decides to play football this fall will be taking a ridiculously high risk they may soon regret. I know and have talked with some of the best plaintiff’s lawyers in the country this week, and they’re praying the SEC, Big 12 and/or the ACC are greedy enough to stay the course. If things go sideways, the plaintiff’s Bar will immediately get their hands on the internal financial analyses of the schools (a FOIA layup), get the conference financials through the discovery process, and then just stand in front of the jurors and point to the conferences that decided not to risk the health of their student-athletes. Good Lord, I’d hate to be the lawyers defending those cases.” And the attorneys lining up to represent plaintiffs? “These are lawyers who’ve already slain bigger dragons than the SEC, and they can afford to finance the most expensive litigation on the planet. As a coalition, they’d be the legal equivalent of the Death Star.” Sleep well, Big 12, ACC and SEC leaders.“ This is why I believe the other conferences will eventually come around to the same decision. SEC fans might be majority hayseed morons, but there are still a few lawyers in the South. As a man who grew up in the Grass Seed Capital of the World, your phraseology is offensive. SEC fans are, by and large, great people. I liked his 2006 College World Series article, but Pat Forde is generally a complete idiot. FOIA would apply to most schools but not all. Tom Mars is a great attorney, but he has been at Walmart corporate a long time. Walmart is not the SEC. I doubt that they would be treated the same or even similarly. If a Plaintiff is pitching a case to a jury composed mostly of SEC fans, are those jurors really going to ding their school or the conference? I doubt it. If you could get a case against an SEC school that crossed state lines to let's say Illinois, New Mexico, New York, Oklahoma or Virginia. I think that a Plaintiff could make hay in one of those jurisdictions. Not to be a pedantic, but FOIA, or the Freedom of Information Act, only applies to the federal government and it's agencies. State agencies and public universities are subject to a myriad of state public disclosure rules, of which FOIA does not apply to at all. For example, here is a rundown of Oregon's laws: www.doj.state.or.us/oregon-department-of-justice/public-records/attorney-generals-public-records-and-meetings-manual/i-public-records/#:~:text=Under%20Oregon's%20Public%20Records%20Law,a%20public%20body%20in%20Oregon.&text=This%20does%20not%20prevent%20a,to%20obtain%20the%20desired%20records. Oregon's public records law is NOT FOIA, though people commonly just use FOIA or consider it all one and the same. All this to say, the degree to which a lawyer can access necessary information will vary from state to state, school to school. Regardless of any of the above, there is no mistake that there is litigation risk. period. will it succeed? is it founded? who knows, but since when has that ever stopped a lawyer?
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Post by spudbeaver on Aug 12, 2020 14:15:59 GMT -8
It’s shocking that the NFL doesn’t know about this! Higher average age by what, 8-10 years?
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Post by obf on Aug 12, 2020 14:30:43 GMT -8
It’s shocking that the NFL doesn’t know about this! Higher average age by what, 8-10 years? You are probably way more up on the news than I am, so you have probably known all along, but this revelation that upwards of 60% of Asystimatic covid positive folks could be walking around with a potentially life threatening heart infection (which doesn't present with couging and fever, just causes cardiac arrest and death suddenly) is big news to me. Seems like it was big new news to the Pac-12 since they went from releasing a 10 gamne scheduale to cancelling the season in just a couple of days... The NFL could also concievably do a type of bubble and has an almost infinite supply of lawyers, college sports is just a totally different beast. As the MLB has shown us, it isn't like the pro sports is a great example of putting wisdom and concern for peoples health above $$$
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Post by robobeav on Aug 12, 2020 14:32:01 GMT -8
If you look hard enough you can generally find lots of reasons NOT to do almost anything. All along the way lots of predictions around this have been widely wrong, but one thing has been constant and that’s the high grade panic and fear storm. Case numbers are starting to drop again and could look much different come September. If students are on campus and teams practicing/training what is the difference to playing games? Is the school saying liability of students with Myocarditis from COVID contracted on campus is ok but not if they play sports? Remember, and RIP, Fred Thompson was playing basketball not on a football field. Lots of students have or will get sick and lots of those will be active on campus. The access to testing excuse is crap - they must not of looked very hard. You can go to an ER and get tested with results with in 24 hours and lots of times within 6 hours. Schools aren’t applying the same reasoning to sports as they are students on campus.
Oh and Pat Forde is an idiot.
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Post by jdogge on Aug 12, 2020 15:07:17 GMT -8
Well... 60% of Covid positive cases, regardless of severity of symptoms, resulting in Myocarditis would certainly change the equation... Especially for student athletes who's entire future in the sport, let alone their life, could be crushed by lingering scar tissue from a heart infection. Here is a good article about it and the Power 5 conferences struggling with this new information. Burried in it is the german study that found 60 out of 100 cases had active myocarditis. Granted it is a tiny study, but it is still alarming. FWIW, you can get myocarditis even from something as simple as the common cold, but of course at teeny tiny rates. 60% is a crazy high rate. Sounds like if you are headed to medical school, the specialty of choice might be cardiologist. This is the type of stuff that makes liability wavers and parents come into play and that might outweigh the influence of the coaches and their teams. Liability waivers are virtually unenforceable. They would require an horrendously detailed disclaimer that would include information we don't have. In twenty years, maybe.
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Post by spudbeaver on Aug 12, 2020 15:18:32 GMT -8
It’s shocking that the NFL doesn’t know about this! Higher average age by what, 8-10 years? You are probably way more up on the news than I am, so you have probably known all along, but this revelation that upwards of 60% of Asystimatic covid positive folks could be walking around with a potentially life threatening heart infection (which doesn't present with couging and fever, just causes cardiac arrest and death suddenly) is big news to me. Seems like it was big new news to the Pac-12 since they went from releasing a 10 gamne scheduale to cancelling the season in just a couple of days... The NFL could also concievably do a type of bubble and has an almost infinite supply of lawyers, college sports is just a totally different beast. As the MLB has shown us, it isn't like the pro sports is a great example of putting wisdom and concern for peoples health above $$$ Absolutely not more up on this news. It’s just interesting that the PAC 12 has the resources to scoop the NFL.
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Post by beaver55to7 on Aug 12, 2020 15:37:00 GMT -8
I think I will wait to see a little more on this topic: From the German study "Cause of death was listed as pneumonia in 35 cases (89.7%), while the other four (10.2%) died of necrotizing fasciitis, cardiac decompensation with previous heart failure, bacterial bronchitis, or unknown causes. The most common underlying illnesses were coronary artery disease (32 [82.0%]), high blood pressure (17 [43.6%]), and diabetes (7 [17.9%]). Median patient age was 85 years, and 23 of 39 patients (59%) were women." Median patient age was 85 years old....ok. and "Left undiagnosed and untreated, it can cause heart damage and sudden cardiac arrest, which can be fatal. It is a rare condition, but the COVID-19 virus has been linked with myocarditis with a higher frequency than other viruses, based on limited studies and anecdotal evidence since the start of the pandemic."...key words...left untreated....limited studies...anecdotal evidence. Yep, no chance this isn't just more doomscrolling. Worth understanding, but not exactly worth the lather in this thread. www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/07/research-reveals-heart-complications-covid-19-patients
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Post by beaverstever on Aug 12, 2020 15:47:35 GMT -8
I think I will wait to see a little more on this topic: From the German study "Cause of death was listed as pneumonia in 35 cases (89.7%), while the other four (10.2%) died of necrotizing fasciitis, cardiac decompensation with previous heart failure, bacterial bronchitis, or unknown causes. The most common underlying illnesses were coronary artery disease (32 [82.0%]), high blood pressure (17 [43.6%]), and diabetes (7 [17.9%]). Median patient age was 85 years, and 23 of 39 patients (59%) were women." Median patient age was 85 years old....ok. and "Left undiagnosed and untreated, it can cause heart damage and sudden cardiac arrest, which can be fatal. It is a rare condition, but the COVID-19 virus has been linked with myocarditis with a higher frequency than other viruses, based on limited studies and anecdotal evidence since the start of the pandemic."...key words...left untreated....limited studies...anecdotal evidence. Yep, no chance this isn't just more doomscrolling. Worth understanding, but not exactly worth the lather in this thread. www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/07/research-reveals-heart-complications-covid-19-patientsI am also pretty skeptical that these two things are related (this study + Pac-12 decision). There are more than a few NBA players playing the bubble that have had Covid-19. I supposed they could be closely monitoring them for inflammation (I have no idea if/how well that can be done), but it seems unlikely they are letting people like Russell Westbrook play if they could just drop dead.
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