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Post by Beavcat on Sept 15, 2020 19:54:55 GMT -8
Maybe when the US figures out how to get this thing under control they can do what other countries are doing; so far we're failing, as in F. And why do you assume distance learning is ineffective? It's been done for many, many years with very good results. My son took high school classes on line and he did just fine with it. If there is an effective alternative why put lives at risk? (It’s a fair question that any balanced person could at least entertain.) Lastly, teachers do get fired for performance issues all the time; I've seen it in my childrens' schools as well as where my wife has taught. For legal reasons it tends to not get publicized much so you're not likely to hear about it. You should read more. Europe is no great shakes. 4% of the population, 25% of all cases and 200,000 dead. Yep, we're killin' it!
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Post by spudbeaver on Sept 15, 2020 20:16:26 GMT -8
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Post by atownbeaver on Sept 15, 2020 21:07:30 GMT -8
Have you calculated the hourly pay you know excluding summers off, staff development days, pers, online vs in class hours the big pay raise the state passed recently. You can’t pay a good teacher enough but all the Oregon teachers union does is ask for more money, newer schools and more time off and are too afraid (more political extortion than fear in my opinion) now to go perform their jobs while the rest of society goes back to work. There is also absolutely no accountability for poor performance in that profession in this state. Your wife maybe the best teacher in the state and if so I have no doubt she’s underpaid because there is no reward for performance it’s all about tenure. Reward based on tenure alone breeds complacency and incompetency not good performance. I put 2 boys through grade school and part of middle school in Texas public schools my daughter through all of her schooling in one of the top school districts in this state and there is absolutely no comparison in the quality of the education. So you can view this opinion as dumb azz because you are emotionally invested in the subject but the fact is there are many that have the same views and their not toothless, uneducated deplorable morons. First, teacher pay is not based on tenure alone. And take a look around; the rest of society has not gone back to their places of work. Why should teachers, many older with health conditions, have to risk their lives by cramming in to overcrowded classrooms? I guarantee most teachers would rather be in the classroom teaching. Your outrage is sorely misplaced. There hasn't been Tenure for K-12 education in Oregon since 1971. Statutes governing contracting of teachers is covered in ORS 342.805 through 342.937 which replaced the Teacher Tenure Law in 1971, those statutes were most recently updated in 1997 in the "Accountability for Schools in the 21st Century" act. Oregon very rarely titles acts in this manner, someone was feeling fancy. If you are using the word tenure in the general sense for length of service... then you are more or less right. If you are using it as "Tenure" meaning the historically held title of a teacher of certain qualifications and length of service achieving special protections and lifetime job assurance... then you are wrong. that system is not used in K-12. Universities still do, both Oregon and Oregon State have Tenure tracts.
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Post by Judge Smails on Sept 16, 2020 5:46:38 GMT -8
Maybe when the US figures out how to get this thing under control they can do what other countries are doing; so far we're failing, as in F. And why do you assume distance learning is ineffective? It's been done for many, many years with very good results. My son took high school classes on line and he did just fine with it. If there is an effective alternative why put lives at risk? (It’s a fair question that any balanced person could at least entertain.) Lastly, teachers do get fired for performance issues all the time; I've seen it in my childrens' schools as well as where my wife has taught. For legal reasons it tends to not get publicized much so you're not likely to hear about it. You let us know what hurdles we need to meet before it’s under control because the death rate per Capita is almost exactly the same as say the UKs as well as Western Europe in aggregate so i guess they get an F too. Oregon’s is amongst the lowest in the country. I know it’s probably not what you hear but facts are always useful. Teachers with tenure rarely get fired for job performance. If we are going to to distance learning I’m perfectly fine with it. Return the tax dollars to the families and give them a choice of private or public and stop passing bond measures for bigger beautiful schools like say the additional 1.2 billion for Jefferson and benson on top of the half billion approved in 2017. Kate shut down private schools because the teachers union complained that they would lose students and tax dollars regardless of the plan they presented to safely operate. The bond measures have nothing to do with the state funding for schools. Those are passed by your local district. You can blame your neighbors for the bond measures, but not the state.
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Post by Beavcat on Sept 16, 2020 6:34:19 GMT -8
We could argue until the cows come home over which metric is most appropriate to determine who has handled this $hitshow the best, but regardless, there is one key piece of data missing from any analysis of whether schools should reopen; how many additional outbreaks/illnesses/deaths will there be because of in person learning. It’s too early to say, but if the colleges that have opened so far are any sort of indicator it doesn’t look good (I know – totally different animal, but it’s still many young people gathering together in one place). When is the right time to open – no one knows that. But while there is a viable option, albeit not perfect, it makes sense to exercise caution when people’s lives are at stake. Yes, there is a social and economic cost, but how do you weigh that cost against people’s lives? I think maybe the people with the most knowledge of the issues, the people closest to the situation, should be trusted to make that decision.
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Post by Beavcat on Sept 16, 2020 6:43:49 GMT -8
First, teacher pay is not based on tenure alone. And take a look around; the rest of society has not gone back to their places of work. Why should teachers, many older with health conditions, have to risk their lives by cramming in to overcrowded classrooms? I guarantee most teachers would rather be in the classroom teaching. Your outrage is sorely misplaced. There hasn't been Tenure for K-12 education in Oregon since 1971. Statutes governing contracting of teachers is covered in ORS 342.805 through 342.937 which replaced the Teacher Tenure Law in 1971, those statutes were most recently updated in 1997 in the "Accountability for Schools in the 21st Century" act. Oregon very rarely titles acts in this manner, someone was feeling fancy. If you are using the word tenure in the general sense for length of service... then you are more or less right. If you are using it as "Tenure" meaning the historically held title of a teacher of certain qualifications and length of service achieving special protections and lifetime job assurance... then you are wrong. that system is not used in K-12. Universities still do, both Oregon and Oregon State have Tenure tracts. You obviously know more about this than me, but I believe the length of service only extends within a school district. If a teacher ends up taking another position in another district, even if they have 30 years experience, they are back to square one with a two year "probationary" period. And it seems the length of service has more to do with job stability than pay (correct me if I'm wrong). Pay has more to do with level of education, continuing education credits, and certifications within a particular subject. For example, my wife has certifications in language arts, reading, and social studies making her more valuable and therefor she gets paid more than someone who has been in the district longer but may only be certified in social studies, but if there are layoffs she would go before the person who had been there longer.
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Post by atownbeaver on Sept 16, 2020 7:16:13 GMT -8
There hasn't been Tenure for K-12 education in Oregon since 1971. Statutes governing contracting of teachers is covered in ORS 342.805 through 342.937 which replaced the Teacher Tenure Law in 1971, those statutes were most recently updated in 1997 in the "Accountability for Schools in the 21st Century" act. Oregon very rarely titles acts in this manner, someone was feeling fancy. If you are using the word tenure in the general sense for length of service... then you are more or less right. If you are using it as "Tenure" meaning the historically held title of a teacher of certain qualifications and length of service achieving special protections and lifetime job assurance... then you are wrong. that system is not used in K-12. Universities still do, both Oregon and Oregon State have Tenure tracts. You obviously know more about this than me, but I believe the length of service only extends within a school district. If a teacher ends up taking another position in another district, even if they have 30 years experience, they are back to square one with a two year "probationary" period. And it seems the length of service has more to do with job stability than pay (correct me if I'm wrong). Pay has more to do with level of education, continuing education credits, and certifications within a particular subject. For example, my wife has certifications in language arts, reading, and social studies making her more valuable and therefor she gets paid more than someone who has been in the district longer but may only be certified in social studies, but if there are layoffs she would go before the person who had been there longer. that is correct. the only "length of service" credit a teacher has is within their union. there is no state law protections for teachers, in Oregon, based on length of service. By state law, in Oregon, ALL teachers are on annual contracts. By law, in Oregon, a district must notify the teacher by March 15th of every year if they are going to discontinue the contract. By state law, if a teacher has not heard from the district by April 15th, the contract is automatically renewed. In my wife's first two years, she got actual letters. Now they don't bother. A union advocating with a district, a union negotiating for annual, non-merit based, step increases, or negotiating with the district for lay off cut points at lower lengths of services are union decisions, not state law... which is what Tenure would infer. Teacher pay in Oregon is based on the district, on education level (masters degree + continuing education credits = more money), and length of service. Teachers in Portland make close to double what teachers in most other districts make. In my wife's district, starting salary is $31,500. top pay is ~$65,000. That is starting pay in PPS. The dialog about teachers in Oregon is entirely based on the PPS experience, which is a very corrupted view of teaching in Oregon. It is fair to say that in Oregon teacher raises are not merit based. that is largely true for most any union arrangement. Same is true for any state job.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2020 7:41:45 GMT -8
You let us know what hurdles we need to meet before it’s under control because the death rate per Capita is almost exactly the same as say the UKs as well as Western Europe in aggregate so i guess they get an F too. Oregon’s is amongst the lowest in the country. I know it’s probably not what you hear but facts are always useful. Teachers with tenure rarely get fired for job performance. If we are going to to distance learning I’m perfectly fine with it. Return the tax dollars to the families and give them a choice of private or public and stop passing bond measures for bigger beautiful schools like say the additional 1.2 billion for Jefferson and benson on top of the half billion approved in 2017. Kate shut down private schools because the teachers union complained that they would lose students and tax dollars regardless of the plan they presented to safely operate. The bond measures have nothing to do with the state funding for schools. Those are passed by your local district. You can blame your neighbors for the bond measures, but not the state. your absolutely right the school district and teachers union that fund the ballot measure and the voters that elect them all one in the same. The point was in response to going to online education only. Teachers don't need a palace to perform their duties if kids are not allowed to actually attend the schools.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2020 7:55:30 GMT -8
You obviously know more about this than me, but I believe the length of service only extends within a school district. If a teacher ends up taking another position in another district, even if they have 30 years experience, they are back to square one with a two year "probationary" period. And it seems the length of service has more to do with job stability than pay (correct me if I'm wrong). Pay has more to do with level of education, continuing education credits, and certifications within a particular subject. For example, my wife has certifications in language arts, reading, and social studies making her more valuable and therefor she gets paid more than someone who has been in the district longer but may only be certified in social studies, but if there are layoffs she would go before the person who had been there longer. that is correct. the only "length of service" credit a teacher has is within their union. there is no state law protections for teachers, in Oregon, based on length of service. By state law, in Oregon, ALL teachers are on annual contracts. By law, in Oregon, a district must notify the teacher by March 15th of every year if they are going to discontinue the contract. By state law, if a teacher has not heard from the district by April 15th, the contract is automatically renewed. In my wife's first two years, she got actual letters. Now they don't bother. A union advocating with a district, a union negotiating for annual, non-merit based, step increases, or negotiating with the district for lay off cut points at lower lengths of services are union decisions, not state law... which is what Tenure would infer. Teacher pay in Oregon is based on the district, on education level (masters degree + continuing education credits = more money), and length of service. Teachers in Portland make close to double what teachers in most other districts make. In my wife's district, starting salary is $31,500. top pay is ~$65,000. That is starting pay in PPS. The dialog about teachers in Oregon is entirely based on the PPS experience, which is a very corrupted view of teaching in Oregon. It is fair to say that in Oregon teacher raises are not merit based. that is largely true for most any union arrangement. Same is true for any state job. The teachers and state employee unions in this state control it so I wouldn't separate them. They are in bed with each other and fund all of the campaigns and lobbying as well as any bond measure put on the ballot. You are correct that teacher pay has nothing to do with performance, i noticed that quality of teaching was not mentioned. You also need to include the sweetheart insurance and retirement plan as well as the actual hours worked throughout the year when your talking compensation. They probably outweigh the salary as well as the very low risk of ever losing your job. its not a corrupted view its a factual view.
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Post by Beavcat on Sept 16, 2020 8:27:32 GMT -8
that is correct. the only "length of service" credit a teacher has is within their union. there is no state law protections for teachers, in Oregon, based on length of service. By state law, in Oregon, ALL teachers are on annual contracts. By law, in Oregon, a district must notify the teacher by March 15th of every year if they are going to discontinue the contract. By state law, if a teacher has not heard from the district by April 15th, the contract is automatically renewed. In my wife's first two years, she got actual letters. Now they don't bother. A union advocating with a district, a union negotiating for annual, non-merit based, step increases, or negotiating with the district for lay off cut points at lower lengths of services are union decisions, not state law... which is what Tenure would infer. Teacher pay in Oregon is based on the district, on education level (masters degree + continuing education credits = more money), and length of service. Teachers in Portland make close to double what teachers in most other districts make. In my wife's district, starting salary is $31,500. top pay is ~$65,000. That is starting pay in PPS. The dialog about teachers in Oregon is entirely based on the PPS experience, which is a very corrupted view of teaching in Oregon. It is fair to say that in Oregon teacher raises are not merit based. that is largely true for most any union arrangement. Same is true for any state job. The teachers and state employee unions in this state control it so I wouldn't separate them. They are in bed with each other and fund all of the campaigns and lobbying as well as any bond measure put on the ballot. You are correct that teacher pay has nothing to do with performance, i noticed that quality of teaching was not mentioned. You also need to include the sweetheart insurance and retirement plan as well as the actual hours worked throughout the year when your talking compensation. They probably outweigh the salary as well as the very low risk of ever losing your job. its not a corrupted view its a factual view. My wife's health insurance is crap (all depends on the SD) and PERS tier 1 absolutely was a sweetheart deal (ask Mike Bellotti), after that (the past 15-20 yrs?), not so much.
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Post by Beavcat on Sept 16, 2020 8:36:09 GMT -8
Crawling out of the rabbit hole... Now that the Big 10 is playing how long until the PAC12 reverses course?
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Sept 16, 2020 8:41:40 GMT -8
Crawling out of the rabbit hole... Now that the Big 10 is playing how long until the PAC12 reverses course? Immediately, if not sooner. They must cave by the end of the week. Delaying on August 11th made sense with the slow testing at the time. The situation has changed, though, and the Pac-12 needs to change with it. Adapt or die. Otherwise, everyone is going to start lighting torches and grabbing pitchforks.
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Post by Judge Smails on Sept 16, 2020 8:44:10 GMT -8
The teachers and state employee unions in this state control it so I wouldn't separate them. They are in bed with each other and fund all of the campaigns and lobbying as well as any bond measure put on the ballot. You are correct that teacher pay has nothing to do with performance, i noticed that quality of teaching was not mentioned. You also need to include the sweetheart insurance and retirement plan as well as the actual hours worked throughout the year when your talking compensation. They probably outweigh the salary as well as the very low risk of ever losing your job. its not a corrupted view its a factual view. My wife's health insurance is crap (all depends on the SD) and PERS tier 1 absolutely was a sweetheart deal (ask Mike Bellotti), after that (the past 15-20 yrs?), not so much. Tier 3 is more like a 401k. The teachers do get their contributions put in by the districts, but it's no where near the sweetheart deal that Tier 1 was.
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Post by Judge Smails on Sept 16, 2020 8:45:22 GMT -8
Crawling out of the rabbit hole... Now that the Big 10 is playing how long until the PAC12 reverses course? Immediately, if not sooner. They must cave by the end of the week. Delaying on August 11th made sense with the slow testing at the time. The situation has changed, though, and the Pac-12 needs to change with it. Adapt or die. Otherwise, everyone is going to start lighting torches and grabbing pitchforks. Larry Scott was quoted on ESPN, that mid-November would be the very earliest that the season could start. That will most likely eliminate the Pac 12 from any consideration for the playoff.
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Post by Beavcat on Sept 16, 2020 9:05:54 GMT -8
Crawling out of the rabbit hole... Now that the Big 10 is playing how long until the PAC12 reverses course? Immediately, if not sooner. They must cave by the end of the week. Delaying on August 11th made sense with the slow testing at the time. The situation has changed, though, and the Pac-12 needs to change with it. Adapt or die. Otherwise, everyone is going to start lighting torches and grabbing pitchforks. Although I was originally in favor of what the Pac 12 did I think I would agree with you wilky. Reading about the precautions the Big 10 is taking gives me more confidence. Playing is one thing, but what about fans in the stands? Which way would that go? Is 20% attendance a good threshold and who gets the golden ticket(s)?
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