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Post by bleedorange21 on Mar 8, 2024 18:06:58 GMT -8
It seemed like Lindgren's passing strategy was to use a bunch LOS formation and then spread the patterns to flood the more open side of the field. Guessing here, but it would seem like a good way to go with a strong armed QB and really fast receivers who generally weren't physical enough, or tall enough, to come down with a physically contested ball but were fast enough and quick enough to win a break to the outside. Problem though; as the patterns become more lateral these become really hard throws to make. A 15 yd pattern becomes a 40 yd throw. Maybe he could have used those receivers to do more crosses, drags, bubbles, to run a higher percentage of higher percentage passing plays? Would have taken some pressure off of DJU. ya that’s exactly my point. Probably would’ve worked great with the talent last year.
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Post by nuclearbeaver on Mar 8, 2024 19:07:53 GMT -8
It seemed like Lindgren's passing strategy was to use a bunch LOS formation and then spread the patterns to flood the more open side of the field. Guessing here, but it would seem like a good way to go with a strong armed QB and really fast receivers who generally weren't physical enough, or tall enough, to come down with a physically contested ball but were fast enough and quick enough to win a break to the outside. Problem though; as the patterns become more lateral these become really hard throws to make. A 15 yd pattern becomes a 40 yd throw. Maybe he could have used those receivers to do more crosses, drags, bubbles, to run a higher percentage of higher percentage passing plays? Would have taken some pressure off of DJU. ya that’s exactly my point. Probably would’ve worked great with the talent last year. Except that DJ has trouble on passes under 15 yards...
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Post by irimi on Mar 9, 2024 7:50:28 GMT -8
Gundy has signaled he intends to have an offense that plays to McCoy's and Johnson's game, rather than Ben's. Can you remind me what Ben's game was exactly? Hand the ball off is what I remember.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Mar 9, 2024 10:15:50 GMT -8
Gundy has signaled he intends to have an offense that plays to McCoy's and Johnson's game, rather than Ben's. Can you remind me what Ben's game was exactly? Hand the ball off is what I remember. 12/19 for 165 yards and a touchdown. After a bad sack on the first drive, Gulbranson ran four times for 26 yards. DJU was better at his best but could not read a defense as well and lacked touch on passes under 15 yards. Gulbranson was the tortoise in the tortoise and the hare, and Smitty and Lindgren chose the hare with high upside to the detriment of the team's success in 2023. After watching how 2023 turned out, I am extremely suspect at every single decision by Smitty & Lindgren over the past 15 months.
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Post by irimi on Mar 9, 2024 10:45:04 GMT -8
Can you remind me what Ben's game was exactly? Hand the ball off is what I remember. 12/19 for 165 yards and a touchdown. After a bad sack on the first drive, Gulbranson ran four times for 26 yards. DJU was better at his best but could not read a defense as well and lacked touch on passes under 15 yards. Gulbranson was the tortoise in the tortoise and the hare, and Smitty and Lindgren chose the hare with high upside to the detriment of the team's success in 2023. After watching how 2023 turned out, I am extremely suspect at every single decision by Smitty & Lindgren over the past 15 months. Oh, I agree. I think still struggle to understand, with a former QB as coach, why QB was our weakest position. And the game plan developed for DJU didn't play to his strengths. Probably the same, then, for Gulbranson.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Mar 9, 2024 11:06:34 GMT -8
12/19 for 165 yards and a touchdown. After a bad sack on the first drive, Gulbranson ran four times for 26 yards. DJU was better at his best but could not read a defense as well and lacked touch on passes under 15 yards. Gulbranson was the tortoise in the tortoise and the hare, and Smitty and Lindgren chose the hare with high upside to the detriment of the team's success in 2023. After watching how 2023 turned out, I am extremely suspect at every single decision by Smitty & Lindgren over the past 15 months. Oh, I agree. I think still struggle to understand, with a former QB as coach, why QB was our weakest position. And the game plan developed for DJU didn't play to his strengths. Probably the same, then, for Gulbranson. I think that Arizona figured out the passing game. You saw Arizona, Colorado, Washington, & Oregon each run a lot of one-high pass protection defenses. DJU lacked the ability to look off the safety or precision pass that deep to beat the safety. And DJU seemed awful at checking down. Part of that seemed to be that the underneath routes on the plays with deep routes were drafted up by a 10-year-old and there was otherwise a complete inability to adapt the offense to the defenses that Oregon State was seeing. With that safety back there, the passing game was rather impotent for the most part over the final five weeks, when it mattered most. There is a lot of chatter about Coach Prime on a separate thread, but he (or his staff) was still smart enough to outsmart Smitty and Lindgren. Oregon State's defense was just better than Colorado's offense. Otherwise, Colorado would have been a loss, as well. Also, inserting Chiles for one drive was a new level of dopiness that you would expect to see on a middling high school team, rather than a top flight college program. It absolutely sucked a lot of the rhythm out of the offense each and every game that it was employed. I am supremely happy that Smitty & Lindgren are gone. They set an extremely low bar. I am hoping that Gundy is not a complete moron.
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Post by atownbeaver on Mar 9, 2024 11:55:41 GMT -8
Can you remind me what Ben's game was exactly? Hand the ball off is what I remember. 12/19 for 165 yards and a touchdown. After a bad sack on the first drive, Gulbranson ran four times for 26 yards. DJU was better at his best but could not read a defense as well and lacked touch on passes under 15 yards. Gulbranson was the tortoise in the tortoise and the hare, and Smitty and Lindgren chose the hare with high upside to the detriment of the team's success in 2023. After watching how 2023 turned out, I am extremely suspect at every single decision by Smitty & Lindgren over the past 15 months. The best QB Smith ever had was the one he didn't recruit... Jake Luton. There were a few moments with a few, but Smith never developed a QB even close to the caliber Riley did. Lots of ups and downs with Riley, and a lot of seasons suffering through the growing pains of a new QB, but those new QBs always ended up being among the top ranked guys in the conference after a season or two. DJU was the 7th ranked QB in the Pac-12 this year. To be blunt, that is a terrible performance given his pedigree and hype. He had nearly half the yards of Bo Nix, less than half the TDs and more than double the INTs. He scored 25% of his TDs in a single 5TD game against Cal. You'd need to charter a cruise ship to traverse the gulf between Nix, Williams and Penix to DJU. He did manage to coach Chance Nolan to a #3 QB in the Pac in 2021... in a year that was historically the worse year the Pac-12 ever had for QBs. The leading passer in the Pac (Brown, for Oregon) threw for less than 3,000 yards. Something not seen since at least 2009 (not counting half year 2020). So in basically the worse overall year for QBs in more than a decade, Smith managed the #3 QB in that lot... I think, well at least I expected, that Smith would return us to our long history of having a top 3 conference QB. we'd be back to seeing guys like Mannion slinging the ball around. Hell, I'd even take a Cody Vaz over most of what we have seen.
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Post by bvrbred on Mar 9, 2024 12:04:30 GMT -8
Also, inserting Chiles for one drive was a new level of dopiness that you would expect to see on a middling high school team, rather than a top flight college program. It absolutely sucked a lot of the rhythm out of the offense each and every game that it was employed. I was in favor of that the early part of the seasn when we were playing teams like SJSU and UC Davis. Continuing it in every game thereafter (until Oregon) into our league schedule, irrespective of how the game was going or how well DJU was doing, seemed pretty strange. Its not like we blew through that league schedule with minimal opposition. Every game was close other than Stanford (and Oregon). Knowing what we know now (and I suspect JS was talking to MSU as far back as September, right after Tucker was fired) I wouldn't say JS sacrificed the team's interest to that of grooming Chiles. But I would say that grooming Chiles, and wanting time to evaluate how well he did against Pac-12 competition in real games, was a lot more important than it should have been to a guy under contract at 4+million/year.
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Post by grayman on Mar 9, 2024 13:22:12 GMT -8
Meh. DJU has never been the QB that he was projected to be. He had some pretty significant flaws as a passer when he arrived at OSU and I do think he improved somewhat at OSU but he's just not that guy. I thought Luton actually took that jump that a QB needs to get some NFL time because he was at OSU. He is also limited in some ways but I thought he actually thrived in Smith's offense when he got healthy. As for BG, I feel sorry for him. His chance to make that big step from first year starter to year 2 was derailed with the arrival of DJU. He did just fine against Notre Dame considering he was basically thrown to the wolves. I don't expect him to win the starting job this spring but I won't count him out. And I think the Beavers are fortunate that he decided to stick around.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Mar 9, 2024 17:05:29 GMT -8
12/19 for 165 yards and a touchdown. After a bad sack on the first drive, Gulbranson ran four times for 26 yards. DJU was better at his best but could not read a defense as well and lacked touch on passes under 15 yards. Gulbranson was the tortoise in the tortoise and the hare, and Smitty and Lindgren chose the hare with high upside to the detriment of the team's success in 2023. After watching how 2023 turned out, I am extremely suspect at every single decision by Smitty & Lindgren over the past 15 months. The best QB Smith ever had was the one he didn't recruit... Jake Luton. There were a few moments with a few, but Smith never developed a QB even close to the caliber Riley did. Lots of ups and downs with Riley, and a lot of seasons suffering through the growing pains of a new QB, but those new QBs always ended up being among the top ranked guys in the conference after a season or two. DJU was the 7th ranked QB in the Pac-12 this year. To be blunt, that is a terrible performance given his pedigree and hype. He had nearly half the yards of Bo Nix, less than half the TDs and more than double the INTs. He scored 25% of his TDs in a single 5TD game against Cal. You'd need to charter a cruise ship to traverse the gulf between Nix, Williams and Penix to DJU. He did manage to coach Chance Nolan to a #3 QB in the Pac in 2021... in a year that was historically the worse year the Pac-12 ever had for QBs. The leading passer in the Pac (Brown, for Oregon) threw for less than 3,000 yards. Something not seen since at least 2009 (not counting half year 2020). So in basically the worse overall year for QBs in more than a decade, Smith managed the #3 QB in that lot... I think, well at least I expected, that Smith would return us to our long history of having a top 3 conference QB. we'd be back to seeing guys like Mannion slinging the ball around. Hell, I'd even take a Cody Vaz over most of what we have seen. DJU's raw QBR was fourth in the Pac-12. That is to say that DJU outplayed probable 1-1 Caleb Williams. To me, the gulf between Nix and Penix and DJU was one of consistency and scheme. And nothing is better at disemboweling consistency and inserting doubt, like removing your starter partway through the game for no good reason. I agree with your overall point, though, Smitty & Lindgren were awful at evaluating and developing quarterbacks. GAG was awful at evaluating quarterbacks. He missed on LDR, McM, Kempt, Collins, etc. He finally got lucky with an almost fully-developed quarterback in Jake Luton, who got hurt. Smitty & Lindgren were blessed with Luton, and I do not know what they would have done, if Luton was not there, because it was obvious that they were close to clueless otherwise. They were able to scheme for Nolan and Gulbranson. But then, it is like they completely checked out after the bye last year. Arizona, Colorado, Washington, & Oregon each out-schemed Smitty & Lindgren. I said that we would miss Riley after he eventually moved on, and I still miss Riley.
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Post by bvrbred on Mar 10, 2024 8:29:51 GMT -8
Riley had some talent to work with and developed it well. He inherited Derek but he had the insight to give Matt Moore, who had been a top 10 rated drop back prospect coming out of HS, a chance. Mannion was a 4 star whose HS video was unreal. Riley also schemed for Lyle and developed Sean Canfield from a good but not phenomenal talent into a very good QB by his last year.
JS' achievement in spotting, recruiting, and developing was not only not as good; frankly, it was disappointingly bad. And I don't understand it because he had coached Jake Browning at UW (and presumably had evaluated and recruited him). Browning was one of the most successful college QBs of his era. Why couldn't JS parlay that into becoming known as a QB guru like Jeff Tedford had done? Instead, as a former QB coach and OC, he sucked at QBs but excelled at spotting and developing RBs. Go figure.
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Mar 10, 2024 10:29:53 GMT -8
Oh, I agree. I think still struggle to understand, with a former QB as coach, why QB was our weakest position. And the game plan developed for DJU didn't play to his strengths. Probably the same, then, for Gulbranson. I think that Arizona figured out the passing game. You saw Arizona, Colorado, Washington, & Oregon each run a lot of one-high pass protection defenses. DJU lacked the ability to look off the safety or precision pass that deep to beat the safety. And DJU seemed awful at checking down. Part of that seemed to be that the underneath routes on the plays with deep routes were drafted up by a 10-year-old and there was otherwise a complete inability to adapt the offense to the defenses that Oregon State was seeing. With that safety back there, the passing game was rather impotent for the most part over the final five weeks, when it mattered most. There is a lot of chatter about Coach Prime on a separate thread, but he (or his staff) was still smart enough to outsmart Smitty and Lindgren. Oregon State's defense was just better than Colorado's offense. Otherwise, Colorado would have been a loss, as well. Also, inserting Chiles for one drive was a new level of dopiness that you would expect to see on a middling high school team, rather than a top flight college program. It absolutely sucked a lot of the rhythm out of the offense each and every game that it was employed.I am supremely happy that Smitty & Lindgren are gone. They set an extremely low bar. I am hoping that Gundy is not a complete moron. Chiles played in nine games, generally for no more than one series. He accounted for seven touchdowns running and passing. Scoring TDs on seven of his nine or 10 drives does not sound to me like "sucking the rhythm" out of the offense.
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Post by nuclearbeaver on Mar 10, 2024 10:31:16 GMT -8
I think that Arizona figured out the passing game. You saw Arizona, Colorado, Washington, & Oregon each run a lot of one-high pass protection defenses. DJU lacked the ability to look off the safety or precision pass that deep to beat the safety. And DJU seemed awful at checking down. Part of that seemed to be that the underneath routes on the plays with deep routes were drafted up by a 10-year-old and there was otherwise a complete inability to adapt the offense to the defenses that Oregon State was seeing. With that safety back there, the passing game was rather impotent for the most part over the final five weeks, when it mattered most. There is a lot of chatter about Coach Prime on a separate thread, but he (or his staff) was still smart enough to outsmart Smitty and Lindgren. Oregon State's defense was just better than Colorado's offense. Otherwise, Colorado would have been a loss, as well. Also, inserting Chiles for one drive was a new level of dopiness that you would expect to see on a middling high school team, rather than a top flight college program. It absolutely sucked a lot of the rhythm out of the offense each and every game that it was employed.I am supremely happy that Smitty & Lindgren are gone. They set an extremely low bar. I am hoping that Gundy is not a complete moron. Chiles played in nine games, generally for no more than one series. He accounted for seven touchdowns running and passing. Scoring TDs on seven of his nine or 10 drives does not sound to me like "sucking the rhythm" out of the offense. I think most of us were fine with it when he was being prepped to take over at QB. Its after Smith left and Chiles followed that we soured on training up someone elses impressive prospect.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Mar 10, 2024 12:47:44 GMT -8
I think that Arizona figured out the passing game. You saw Arizona, Colorado, Washington, & Oregon each run a lot of one-high pass protection defenses. DJU lacked the ability to look off the safety or precision pass that deep to beat the safety. And DJU seemed awful at checking down. Part of that seemed to be that the underneath routes on the plays with deep routes were drafted up by a 10-year-old and there was otherwise a complete inability to adapt the offense to the defenses that Oregon State was seeing. With that safety back there, the passing game was rather impotent for the most part over the final five weeks, when it mattered most. There is a lot of chatter about Coach Prime on a separate thread, but he (or his staff) was still smart enough to outsmart Smitty and Lindgren. Oregon State's defense was just better than Colorado's offense. Otherwise, Colorado would have been a loss, as well. Also, inserting Chiles for one drive was a new level of dopiness that you would expect to see on a middling high school team, rather than a top flight college program. It absolutely sucked a lot of the rhythm out of the offense each and every game that it was employed.I am supremely happy that Smitty & Lindgren are gone. They set an extremely low bar. I am hoping that Gundy is not a complete moron. Chiles played in nine games, generally for no more than one series. He accounted for seven touchdowns running and passing. Scoring TDs on seven of his nine or 10 drives does not sound to me like "sucking the rhythm" out of the offense. You can look at the three drives following each Chiles drives. I believe that Oregon State scored something like 10 points in those 21 drives. It is profoundly stupid to warm up a quarterback, have him play for a bit, shut him down, and then ask him to warm back up and insert him. You can do that one game. Maybe two. But the seven games that that occurred were just awful. If Chiles was the starter, start him. If not, he should not formulaically be seeing the third drive of every game. Then, we see what a not 100% DJU looks like and grumble, because he is playing with one arm behind his back. You see garbage like that from bad high school teams, not Power Five football teams. Stupid!
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Post by beaver55to7 on Mar 10, 2024 14:24:10 GMT -8
Chiles played in nine games, generally for no more than one series. He accounted for seven touchdowns running and passing. Scoring TDs on seven of his nine or 10 drives does not sound to me like "sucking the rhythm" out of the offense. You can look at the three drives following each Chiles drives. I believe that Oregon State scored something like 10 points in those 21 drives. It is profoundly stupid to warm up a quarterback, have him play for a bit, shut him down, and then ask him to warm back up and insert him. You can do that one game. Maybe two. But the seven games that that occurred were just awful. If Chiles was the starter, start him. If not, he should not formulaically be seeing the third drive of every game. Then, we see what a not 100% DJU looks like and grumble, because he is playing with one arm behind his back. You see garbage like that from bad high school teams, not Power Five football teams. Stupid! I always felt it was a negotiating tactic, ala Lincoln Riley and Caleb Smith at Oklahoma. Make yourself a package deal of head coach coming with premiere qb. From when Smith first started putting Chiles in for 1 series I always thought it was so odd, no one in college football with a team contending for a power 5 championship has ever done that. I felt there might be a vague chance he was just trying to keep Chiles happy, but would any coach do that with the risk of losing a Pac-12 championship because you are afraid to lose a freshmen qb in the offseason? Seemed like a no to me. That made me think, given all the circumstances, that JS was looking for another job, and felt if he had a premiere qb to dangle that would make him much more valuable. The package deal.
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