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Post by atownbeaver on Oct 27, 2016 20:18:00 GMT -8
we can not consistently set an edge and when we do there is no help coming from the inside. I think this is the most concise assessment of what is wrong with the OSU run defense, you really hit the nail on the head. The 43 front is designed to string plays out to the sideline and rush the passer. The 34 front is designed where the OLB's set the edge and turn the play back to inside pursuit, and we have not been successful with it. I think we're doing fine with our NG and DT's, it's the linebackers where we are falling down. Not enough length on the outside and not enough lead in the britches on the inside is what it boils down to, in my opinion. We still have a roster full of small-fast 43 LB's. In the end, it comes down to where you want to wage your battle. Do you want to fight for the rare, highly desirable DL? or the rare highly desirable OLB and ILB? I still think, in my opinion,the 3-4 is flawed at the college level due to putting a higher emphasis on needing some extraordinary talent. I think 4-3 excels at being serviceable with average talent, and then you throw in a couple of stars here and there and you are now scary. But, I an be convinced otherwise... It is young in the GA regime. We have yet to see if he can take a raw body, add 20lbs of muscle and make a diamond from the rough.
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Post by nforkbeav on Oct 27, 2016 21:32:24 GMT -8
Weighing in on any team deficit seems to always turn in the a MR vs GA debate... cupboard bare, players weak, etc. But, 3-4 vs 4-3 debate is basically one of philosophy just like running an offense. You run and teach what you believe in NOT what you think will be effective vs an opponent. Instead you make adjustments to your base D and make tweaks and add some special schemes. In our case... whether we were in the 3-4 or the 4-3 I believe we'd have the same issues... we have poor technique in several areas, we are bad tacklers, and we have terrible communication at times. So, run whatever D you want, but if your players can't get aligned and communicate, then know their assignments, and execute it will not matter. I look on the field at times and we are often confused/misaligned and moving at the snap not prepared to play. We have too many late substitutions. We have too many receivers left wide open... deep coverages are not rolled or exchanged and coverages by LBs on under routes are almost none existent in some cases... we can not consistently set an edge and when we do there is no help coming from the inside. I have come to the conclusion it's not as much poor coaching, but OVER coaching. Players and groupings seem to be confused. Players seem to be unprepared at the snap too often, we are misaligned often, players are trying to communicate way too late in the snap count. Without being on the inside it seems we are trying to be too sophisticated and players are overwhelmed/confused. We are mediocre and inconsistent in much we do. So, for now whatever system it looks like simplifying, ingraining the key basics, getting players feeling confident in the alignments, assignments so they can truly execute at a high level, is what would help. It also does not help that the position changes are crazy... not just due to injuries... players already playing confused are now trying to learn multiple positions. Screw saving RS for the Frosh. This program was/is not at the level where that luxury is possible. They should have been prepared to play from game 1 and the depth/experience created right away instead of waiting til injuries hit. Now you burn RS and have inexperienced players in game 7. I will not waste time to argue the pros and cons/x's and o's of a system when the lack of skill development and mental prep makes it a moot point. We are still seeing defenders put their head down and dive at the ball carrier with their arms at their side. First quarter at UW, we go for it on 4th down. like 4th and 2 or something. the play is a fake hand off to Cook and a quick pitch to Lucas that he takes to the outside. the UW safety comes up right past the LOS, no further, squares his feet up, sits on his angle and lets Lucas come to him. He knows his LBs are filling in from the backside so Lucas has to keep coming at him. and then here is the key. He keeps square. he stays upright, he makes contact with Lucas with his head up, with a strong base, he wraps his arms completely around Lucas, DRIVES through him and runs him to the sideline. makes the stop. picture perfect open field tackle that did not allow Lucas to get over him and stretch for the 1st. the safety played it smart and with perfect technique. It shows to me that UW coaches drill basic tackling skills over and over and over again. It showed me the safety was completely aware of his place on the field, the situation and what needed to be done. This is not something I have seen from an OSU defender in nearly 2 years. period. I have not seen smart applications of angles across the defense, I have not seen a single defender settle in, square up and TACKLE. maybe second quarter... It think this was Arnold, but Pettis catches a deep ball on a blown coverage. Arnold is in perfect position to make the tackle at about the 10. He starts alright... he squares up, he gets a good base... then he proceeds to stare directly at his feet and dive straight forward into nothingness... as Pettis needed to hardly shimmy a foot to his right to dodge him and bounce off his flailing arm tackle. baseba1111 makes a valid argument. talk all the scheme you want... our players rarely make good tackles when they are in position. Just against UW there was a dropped ball on a perfectly placed sideline pass beyond the marker on 3rd down because the receiver tried to catch it with his body instead of his hands. I counted a couple more drops for the same reason and it also happened on what should have been an interception, the db tried to catch it off his chest. Are fundamentals no longer worked on? As for tackling, I see a lot of head down lunges, very poor technique. Also see a lot of open hip tackles with the feet either not finishing the tackle or too far away to begin with. Guys get caught on their heels in space instead of on their toes ready to mirror the ball carrier, and on out pursuit too many times they over pursue begging for the runner to cut back, too often they have their heads out in front of their toes of balance, and take crossover steps with the shoulders open to the line of scrimmage when they should be sidestepping and keeping them closed to the los. It's frustrating to watch.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Oct 28, 2016 7:41:11 GMT -8
I watched a bunch of pre-season practices with Cooks. One of the things that impressed me about him was he spent a lot of his free time working on catching the ball with his hands, more time on the receiving end of the football launcher/passing machine (whatever it's called) than anyone else I can recall from that team. I remember thinking Obum should be right there with him.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Oct 28, 2016 15:01:56 GMT -8
I watched a bunch of pre-season practices with Cooks. One of the things that impressed me about him was he spent a lot of his free time working on catching the ball with his hands, more time on the receiving end of the football launcher/passing machine (whatever it's called) than anyone else I can recall from that team. I remember thinking Obum should be right there with him. No amount of practicing was going to make Gwacham a starting Pac-12 wide receiver. He was the fish that wanted to fly. In the end, he was only a fish (defensive end). It took until after he almost single-handedly cost Oregon State the Eastern Washington game for the coaching staff finally to put an end to the foolishness. He retarded the development of Richard Mullaney. He was often one of the most athletic players on the field, but he was not in a position to actually utilize his skills until his senior year. His complete misuse is a black eye on the previous coaching staff.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Oct 29, 2016 9:13:17 GMT -8
All I'm saying is that when the guys with the best "hands" on the team are spending the most time on the machine, and the one's who have "hands" issues aren't spending much,if any time on it... maybe there's a correlation. I remember watching Cooks (and I think a couple of the other receivers and defensive backs) spend tons of time practicing hands only catching, Obum didn't, at least while I was watching.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Oct 30, 2016 0:02:25 GMT -8
All I'm saying is that when the guys with the best "hands" on the team are spending the most time on the machine, and the one's who have "hands" issues aren't spending much,if any time on it... maybe there's a correlation. I remember watching Cooks (and I think a couple of the other receivers and defensive backs) spend tons of time practicing hands only catching, Obum didn't, at least while I was watching. And perhaps I missed the point you are making. Are you saying that Obum was lazy? I thought he was a square peg trying to get himself to fit in a round hole, but are you saying that Obum just did not work on it enough to actually be the receiver that he always "wanted" to be?
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Oct 30, 2016 10:16:49 GMT -8
All I'm saying is that when the guys with the best "hands" on the team are spending the most time on the machine, and the one's who have "hands" issues aren't spending much,if any time on it... maybe there's a correlation. I remember watching Cooks (and I think a couple of the other receivers and defensive backs) spend tons of time practicing hands only catching, Obum didn't, at least while I was watching. And perhaps I missed the point you are making. Are you saying that Obum was lazy? I thought he was a square peg trying to get himself to fit in a round hole, but are you saying that Obum just did not work on it enough to actually be the receiver that he always "wanted" to be? I don't want to call anyone "lazy" but I do wonder if he made the correct choices when it comes down to focus. With Cooks it was obvious he focused on catching the ball with his hands, it's tough to explain but watching him work with the machine was different than watching anyone else. Not only did he spend more time on it, but his body movement was different than others, he sort of seemed to be concentrating on keeping his hands from moving once he caught the ball, like trying to will the ball to stick to a statue of hands, quite strange and hard to describe. Cooks would go back to the machines several times during practice. For a kid having the dropsies, Cooks attention to detail on catching the ball seemed to me to be a good thing to emulate. Few if any of these kids are lazy, but certain kids do concentrate on different things.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Oct 30, 2016 15:03:57 GMT -8
And perhaps I missed the point you are making. Are you saying that Obum was lazy? I thought he was a square peg trying to get himself to fit in a round hole, but are you saying that Obum just did not work on it enough to actually be the receiver that he always "wanted" to be? I don't want to call anyone "lazy" but I do wonder if he made the correct choices when it comes down to focus. With Cooks it was obvious he focused on catching the ball with his hands, it's tough to explain but watching him work with the machine was different than watching anyone else. Not only did he spend more time on it, but his body movement was different than others, he sort of seemed to be concentrating on keeping his hands from moving once he caught the ball, like trying to will the ball to stick to a statue of hands, quite strange and hard to describe. Cooks would go back to the machines several times during practice. For a kid having the dropsies, Cooks attention to detail on catching the ball seemed to me to be a good thing to emulate. Few if any of these kids are lazy, but certain kids do concentrate on different things. He had a ton of God-give talent, but Cooks was driven like few men before him at Oregon State. It seemed like he was very motivated to provide himself and his family a better life and worked hard to make that goal a reality.
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Post by justdamwin on Oct 30, 2016 15:44:31 GMT -8
I think this is the most concise assessment of what is wrong with the OSU run defense, you really hit the nail on the head. The 43 front is designed to string plays out to the sideline and rush the passer. The 34 front is designed where the OLB's set the edge and turn the play back to inside pursuit, and we have not been successful with it. I think we're doing fine with our NG and DT's, it's the linebackers where we are falling down. Not enough length on the outside and not enough lead in the britches on the inside is what it boils down to, in my opinion. We still have a roster full of small-fast 43 LB's. In the end, it comes down to where you want to wage your battle. Do you want to fight for the rare, highly desirable DL? or the rare highly desirable OLB and ILB? I still think, in my opinion,the 3-4 is flawed at the college level due to putting a higher emphasis on needing some extraordinary talent. I think 4-3 excels at being serviceable with average talent, and then you throw in a couple of stars here and there and you are now scary. But, I an be convinced otherwise... It is young in the GA regime. We have yet to see if he can take a raw body, add 20lbs of muscle and make a diamond from the rough. I will disagree and you probably know that, the 4-3 doesn't function without two hard to find multi skilled. Multi technique DEs. Thing is that same player may do you more good at TE. More Joe Lemmas than Swannies. Just not that many on a roster. Recruit the islands find your NT and run a 3-4
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Oct 30, 2016 21:06:40 GMT -8
In the end, it comes down to where you want to wage your battle. Do you want to fight for the rare, highly desirable DL? or the rare highly desirable OLB and ILB? I still think, in my opinion,the 3-4 is flawed at the college level due to putting a higher emphasis on needing some extraordinary talent. I think 4-3 excels at being serviceable with average talent, and then you throw in a couple of stars here and there and you are now scary. But, I an be convinced otherwise... It is young in the GA regime. We have yet to see if he can take a raw body, add 20lbs of muscle and make a diamond from the rough. I will disagree and you probably know that, the 4-3 doesn't function without two hard to find multi skilled. Multi technique DEs. Thing is that same player may do you more good at TE. More Joe Lemmas than Swannies. Just not that many on a roster. Recruit the islands find your NT and run a 3-4 I always thought that 4-3 DEs were pretty ubiquitous. (Or at least they seemed to be ubiquitous under Riley.) The problem with the 4-3, in my mind was finding two DTs and a good middle linebacker. (Mageo seemed to be on his way. But who was the last good MLB before him? Rueben Robinson?) Right now, Oregon State does not seem to have two ILBs to make a 3-4 go. And does not have two physical freaks at OLB to cover the lack of talent at ILB.
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