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Post by atownbeaver on Jul 6, 2020 15:55:52 GMT -8
This might qualify for the least "woke" post of the day. I suggest doing some reading on the topic of racism in the US. Perhaps the least substantive post of the day. But if you could recommend some fact based balanced reading that will enlighten me I'm all in on your recommendation. I doubt MLK would really have a problem with this post, I recommend you read some of his work you might be a bit more informed on the subject. Redlining is a good place to start. It ties in nicely with the issue of average American wealth and home ownership. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining
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Post by beaverstever on Jul 6, 2020 16:02:26 GMT -8
Actually, Glove didn't inject politics into the discussion with his first two posts...you did. I looked back at the original thread about Gundy and the Okla St football player who wanted to quit because of the t-shirt Gundy was wearing. Yeah, the football player turned the tshirt into a political statement but the thread itself only got political in the sense that there was a mild discussion over whether 1st Amendment rights to free speech were violated by only government actors or, in addition, private actors. What does that have to do with Oregon State football? This: A program that we are going to play this fall (or, at least, we hope to) was having issues with its players and head coach and now Glove has poster what is likely to be the last significant major media story about it: the coach had to take a cut. So now we know that there are no suspensions, no firings, no resignations. The last we are likely to see of anything over there that MIGHT get political is if an Okla St player leaves and tells the media that he thinks Gundy runs a racist program or something like that. So lighten up! Glove posted about an opposing team on our schedule that had/has internal conflicts that could have affected their team and thus the outcome our game with them. You are so sensitive to potential criticism of your political views that you took a mild post as an attack. But worse, you have opened the door for people going after your political views and you boldly announced them on your post. Frankly, you deserve what is likely coming... Actually, no, I am very comfortable in my own skin. I have nothing to (politically) to apologize for. I did not take the post as an attack, certainly not as an attack on me. The implication came across as a bit sarcastic and cavalier - Gundy can afford it.
And yes, as always, I appreciate the alternate point of view. I agree I let my frustration with the other OSU for punishing a coach that seemingly did doing nothing wrong, a coach totally within his rights, bleed over to Glove - fair point. Another consideration, I suspect the university may have found other evidence that led to the pay cut. We may never know.
It is a sad day, when any coach has to apologize, and then have his pay docked, because of an innocuous t-shirt. I think it is the overly sensitive snowflakes that complained about it in the first place that need to lighten up. I also was responding to the notion that just because he is a coach with a contract, that he can afford the "haircut" - meaning cut in pay. Rather cavalier attitude by someone who has not walked a mile in his shoes, so to speak. And yes, I may have come on a bit too strong on my response. My bad.
He's a public figure. He knows there are consequences to his actions, regardless of them being done in private or not ... that's true for the players as well. And it cuts both ways - if he was caught with a CNN shirt (or probably more comparable, HuffPo or Daily Kos), he likely would have caused calls from some of their donors, and cost the program money. Probably wouldn't have been as public, but the resulting pay haircut certainly could have been the same. Would you call those donors 'snowflakes' and that they needed to 'lighten up'? Either action affects the university's bottom line, as the most public face of that university. He clearly didn't get that, and so my view is that what is really needed here is for him to 'grow up' - after all, he's a man, well beyond 40 now.
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Post by ag87 on Jul 6, 2020 16:06:15 GMT -8
I'm not a right-winger. Thanks, though.
You're the perfect example of who I was referencing.
You’re not a right-winger, and I’m Elvis. I'm all shook up
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Post by beaverstever on Jul 6, 2020 16:17:47 GMT -8
They are held back by poor life choices? So you can choose which neighborhood you are born into? You can choose the quality of teachers you get or the quality of school you attend? You can choose the quality of public transportation available to you? You can choose how much money your mom or dad makes and how much the rent on your family’s apartment is? Choice = privilege. What you wrote above can apply to anyone/everyone who's not wealthy and also depending on the location they live (among about 20 other factors you didn't address).
^^^ Is that your idea of "white privilege"? ^^^
Did you have an actual point?
So you believe that if you are black, you can live anywhere you can afford in the US? The town I grew up in in OR was considered a 'sundown' town, even during my lifetime, and I'm not old. There were no black kids in my school, even in the early 90s, and it wasn't because it was expensive. I'm assume you don't believe white privilege exists ... so what is your definition of it?
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Post by atownbeaver on Jul 6, 2020 16:22:08 GMT -8
What you wrote above can apply to anyone/everyone who's not wealthy and also depending on the location they live (among about 20 other factors you didn't address).
^^^ Is that your idea of "white privilege"? ^^^
Did you have an actual point?
Exactly. But that's not the narrative people want to hear Of course it can happen to anybody. the point is it happens to certain demographics more. From the 2018 ACS: 8.1% of White's are at or below the poverty level compared with 20.8% of Blacks 17.6% of Hispanics 23.7% of Native Americans So... either Blacks, Hispanics and Native Americans all need to start making better life choices and that some how, some way, whites are all universally better at making good live choices... OR, you know, maybe, just maybe, there are a couple of issues at play affecting those numbers. Generational poverty affects Blacks in this country more than Whites because for generations cities, governments, banks and other entities locked out Blacks from areas of the cities, wouldn't lend them money, could approve mortgages, and shoved the communities into crowded, poorly maintained rental block housing.
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Post by beaverstever on Jul 6, 2020 16:31:12 GMT -8
He's a public figure. He knows there are consequences to his actions, regardless of them being done in private or not ... that's true for the players as well. And it cuts both ways - if he was caught with a CNN shirt (or probably more comparable, HuffPo or Daily Kos), he likely would have caused calls from some of their donors, and cost the program money.Calls of laughter, sure. So is your point that the reverse wouldn't/never happens? It absolute does, even for coaches that seem untouchable. e.g. www.wuky.org/post/calipari-cancels-beshear-fundraiser#stream/0
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Post by lebaneaver on Jul 6, 2020 16:35:09 GMT -8
Of course it can happen to anybody. the point is it happens to certain demographics more. From the 2018 ACS: 8.1% of White's are at or below the poverty level compared with 20.8% of Blacks 17.6% of Hispanics 23.7% of Native Americans So... either Blacks, Hispanics and Native Americans all need to start making better life choices and that some how, some way, whites are all universally better at making good live choices... OR, you know, maybe, just maybe, there are a couple of issues at play affecting those numbers. Generational poverty affects Blacks in this country more than Whites because for generations cities, governments, banks and other entities locked out Blacks from areas of the cities, wouldn't lend them money, could approve mortgages, and shoved the communities into crowded, poorly maintained rental block housing. Let's use some "progressive" math, instead?
Are there more "poor whites" or more "poor blacks" in the US? Raw numbers, not percentages or per 100,000. Take your time.
What..... in hell..... are you even talking about? “Progressive math?” Per capita MEANS SOMETHING. Do you not understand that?
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Post by NativeBeav on Jul 6, 2020 16:36:47 GMT -8
Perhaps the least substantive post of the day. But if you could recommend some fact based balanced reading that will enlighten me I'm all in on your recommendation. I doubt MLK would really have a problem with this post, I recommend you read some of his work you might be a bit more informed on the subject. Redlining is a good place to start. It ties in nicely with the issue of average American wealth and home ownership. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RedliningHonest question - was redlining just about race, or do you think there were other factors? I would suggest as much or more of the reason would be perceived financial risk, and it would occur in both poor white or poor black communities. Not saying it is necessarily right for either, just not sure it is purely a race issue
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Post by NativeBeav on Jul 6, 2020 16:39:54 GMT -8
What you wrote above can apply to anyone/everyone who's not wealthy and also depending on the location they live (among about 20 other factors you didn't address).
^^^ Is that your idea of "white privilege"? ^^^
Did you have an actual point?
So you believe that if you are black, you can live anywhere you can afford in the US? The town I grew up in in OR was considered a 'sundown' town, even during my lifetime, and I'm not old. There were no black kids in my school, even in the early 90s, and it wasn't because it was expensive. I'm assume you don't believe white privilege exists ... so what is your definition of it? Honest question - unless you believe systemic racism occurs on college campuses today, one of the most "woke" environments in the country, why is it that when it comes to social time, housing, etc - it is not uncommon for different racial groups to congregate together - blacks, asians, hispanics, caucasians, etc. - is that due to "racism", or is it just the reality that people are more comfortable around people that culturally, ethnically are similar?
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Post by atownbeaver on Jul 6, 2020 16:40:28 GMT -8
Of course it can happen to anybody. the point is it happens to certain demographics more. From the 2018 ACS: 8.1% of White's are at or below the poverty level compared with 20.8% of Blacks 17.6% of Hispanics 23.7% of Native Americans So... either Blacks, Hispanics and Native Americans all need to start making better life choices and that some how, some way, whites are all universally better at making good live choices... OR, you know, maybe, just maybe, there are a couple of issues at play affecting those numbers. Generational poverty affects Blacks in this country more than Whites because for generations cities, governments, banks and other entities locked out Blacks from areas of the cities, wouldn't lend them money, could approve mortgages, and shoved the communities into crowded, poorly maintained rental block housing. Let's use some "progressive" math, instead?
Are there more "poor whites" or more "poor blacks" in the US? Raw numbers, not percentages or per 100,000. Take your time.
I am having a moment where someone says something so profoundly stupid you have no idea what to say back to it.
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Post by NativeBeav on Jul 6, 2020 16:46:01 GMT -8
Exactly. But that's not the narrative people want to hear Of course it can happen to anybody. the point is it happens to certain demographics more. From the 2018 ACS: 8.1% of White's are at or below the poverty level compared with 20.8% of Blacks 17.6% of Hispanics 23.7% of Native Americans So... either Blacks, Hispanics and Native Americans all need to start making better life choices and that some how, some way, whites are all universally better at making good live choices... OR, you know, maybe, just maybe, there are a couple of issues at play affecting those numbers. Generational poverty affects Blacks in this country more than Whites because for generations cities, governments, banks and other entities locked out Blacks from areas of the cities, wouldn't lend them money, could approve mortgages, and shoved the communities into crowded, poorly maintained rental block housing. If we are such a racist nation how do you explain these numbers -
Notice all that "White Privilege" did not help us to have the highest per household income in the US. Indians and Asians have us beat. If we are such a racist country, why are so many people from around the world, even people of color, clamoring to come here?
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Post by beaverstever on Jul 6, 2020 16:46:07 GMT -8
Of course it can happen to anybody. the point is it happens to certain demographics more. From the 2018 ACS: 8.1% of White's are at or below the poverty level compared with 20.8% of Blacks 17.6% of Hispanics 23.7% of Native Americans So... either Blacks, Hispanics and Native Americans all need to start making better life choices and that some how, some way, whites are all universally better at making good live choices... OR, you know, maybe, just maybe, there are a couple of issues at play affecting those numbers. Generational poverty affects Blacks in this country more than Whites because for generations cities, governments, banks and other entities locked out Blacks from areas of the cities, wouldn't lend them money, could approve mortgages, and shoved the communities into crowded, poorly maintained rental block housing. Let's use some "progressive" math, instead?
Are there more "poor whites" or more "poor blacks" in the US? Raw numbers, not percentages or per 100,000. Take your time.
I honestly don't get your point. Sure, there are more total white people in poverty in the US than black people, simply because there are a whole lot more white people. Yes, and...? Is your point that poverty is a bigger white problem as a result? If that's your reasoning, I want to inform you that eating food is much, much more dangerous than lightning strikes, and you should have no issues hanging out at the highest point under an electric storm. If you disagree, look up the total deaths by choking vs. total deaths by lightning strikes - facts are facts. Go ahead, take your time.
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Post by beaverstever on Jul 6, 2020 16:56:39 GMT -8
I honestly don't get your point. Sure, there are more total white people in poverty in the US than black people, simply because there are a whole lot more white people. Yes, and...? Is your point that poverty is a bigger white problem as a result? Because "white privilege,", right?
Uh, no. Because they are 70% of the population, they will have the majority of totals in any measurement, even when the % is small. Please tell me you do not hold a degree from OSU?
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Post by beaverstever on Jul 6, 2020 17:03:33 GMT -8
Of course it can happen to anybody. the point is it happens to certain demographics more. From the 2018 ACS: 8.1% of White's are at or below the poverty level compared with 20.8% of Blacks 17.6% of Hispanics 23.7% of Native Americans So... either Blacks, Hispanics and Native Americans all need to start making better life choices and that some how, some way, whites are all universally better at making good live choices... OR, you know, maybe, just maybe, there are a couple of issues at play affecting those numbers. Generational poverty affects Blacks in this country more than Whites because for generations cities, governments, banks and other entities locked out Blacks from areas of the cities, wouldn't lend them money, could approve mortgages, and shoved the communities into crowded, poorly maintained rental block housing. If we are such a racist nation how do you explain these numbers -
Notice all that "White Privilege" did not help us to have the highest per household income in the US. Indians and Asians have us beat. If we are such a racist country, why are so many people from around the world, even people of color, clamoring to come here?
Are you asking because you are genuinely curious to know the answer, or are you just looking to reinforce a view and not broaden your understanding? Because I can explain how those two things can co-exist, but I'm not sure you actually care to learn.
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Post by atownbeaver on Jul 6, 2020 17:03:51 GMT -8
Honest question - was redlining just about race, or do you think there were other factors? I would suggest as much or more of the reason would be perceived financial risk, and it would occur in both poor white or poor black communities. Not saying it is necessarily right for either, just not sure it is purely a race issue no it wasn't JUST about race. But it was, more times than not, the prevailing factor. It is why it could last so long and be widely accepted even beyond the Fair Housing Act. It was very easy to pivot to to ambiguous notions of credit worthiness and financial risk. And as we are fighting about, plenty of white people suffer these policies to... the issue is MORE blacks and minorities do (proportionally) than whites. the issues is basically it has been a long standing tool of oppression that affects certain demographics at a higher rate. What makes all of this hard to wrap your head around is it isn't clear-cut burning a cross in a lawn type stuff. It is years and years of subtle jabs and minor cuts that many times have some quasi-legitimate reasoning behind it. War on Drugs is another big one. Is anybody, on the surface, going to argue that being tough on drugs is bad policy? no, and nobody did at the time. Did tens of thousands of whites get swept up in that? yep. but did tens of thousands more blacks, Hispanics and other minorities get jailed, and often face harsher punishments? yep again. And years and years later we see how it was widespread policy used to oppress black populations primarily. even worse, in states that have for-profit prisons, it is the major mechanism used to keep those prisons full. On the backs of young black men, generally serving ludicrous prison sentences for having a dime bag in their pocket. Over and over again studies have shown black get longer jail sentences for the same crime even when controlling for previous criminal records. Also that whole CIA selling cocaine and heroin to inner city blacks as part of the Iran-Contra thing is a mind f%#* as well. That is a fun google rabbit hole. Point being, "systemic racism" is a tough issue to crack. it is hard to understand, it is hard to verbalize and it is even harder to undo. There is not much you can do to erase generations of actions meant to oppress a full population. you can't just go "oops, my bad. we cool now". it doesn't give Grandma her house in 1940, she could of given her kids in 1980, than passed to her grand kids in 2020, and they sell it for $500K in the PDX market, and now that family has wealth they never had before, and those grandkids now have a little bit better shot, statistically, at going to a nicer school or a little cushion from mom and dad to take a risk on a start up business or something similar. Blacks in this country are generations behind in achievement, so to speak. A common story for white people in America, is a far less common story for Blacks. I am 40... in my peer group among my close friends, I am already reaching the age where some friends are getting houses passed down to them, or getting inheritances, or other generational gifts... and holy hell, it is life changing. Not every white family gets that. Many... far too many, suffer generational poverty as well. Grandpa lived in a trailer, so did dad and now so do they... nobody leaves, nobody achieves. But the point we are trying to make is in America, the system of wealth, the system of success for *most* people, favors whites. It isn't the only way to succeed. there are thousands of very wealth blacks in America. there are thousands and thousands that got out of "the ghetto" and succeeded. But like countless studies have shown over and over again, when you look at it all at a high level, you are more likely to succeed yourself if your parents were successful, you are more likely to be rich if your parents were rich and the most common way people in this country themselves get rich is generational wealth handed down, primarily via home equity or land. We want to sell the business dream in America. you get rich by pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and starting some business. Many people do just that, but most do not. The money builds over time over generations.
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