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Post by blackbug on Nov 2, 2017 10:42:46 GMT -8
Please see the bold for players that started and did not return. You do not have to be a senior for this to happen. The truer number of seniors that started and graduated is 4. You missed Anderson and Sapolu. The confusion is found in that 3 of the starters were actually lost in the midst of the 2014 season due to injury and never returned. Anderson started 3 games, so I'd hardly consider him a lost starter. Sapolu was among the top 5 OL with the most starts, but Weinreich was not. Seumalo was returning from a medical year, but there were more guys returning with starting experience. Sapolu IIRC, missed a lot of the season with injury. Bays was a returning OL, but had to medically retire, which I believe was the following year. Still, the OL wasn't hurting for guys with starting experience even after Bays retired. You're counting guys who were only starting because of injury, and I'm counting returning guys who weren't starters because of injury. (but Anderson still doesn't count). Point is, we had a s%#t-ton of experience returning to the squad at every position except QB. Guys with multiple starts at every position. SaveSaveSaveSaveI don't necessarily disagree with you completely. The problem lies in I could tell you that we return 14 starters on defense next year barring injuries. This is true because that is how many we return with starting experience. We both know that only 11 will start on defense, so counting those that started due to injury to others as returning starters isn't always completely accurate. The better way of stating it is we return x number of players with starting experience.
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Post by blackbug on Nov 2, 2017 10:56:02 GMT -8
Please see the bold for players that started and did not return. You do not have to be a senior for this to happen. The truer number of seniors that started and graduated is 4. You missed Anderson and Sapolu. The confusion is found in that 3 of the starters were actually lost in the midst of the 2014 season due to injury and never returned. Your argument appears to be degenerating from an actual argument to a technical argument. Oregon State's graduating seniors on offense were Tyler Anderson, Connor Hamlett, Sean Mannion, Iona Prichard, and Jacob Wark. You make no argument that Prichard and Wark were starters, because they were not. I can find no instance in which Tyler Anderson started a single game in 2014. He had nine touches all year. Your putting him in your list tends to undercut everyone else on your list. His loss was catastrophic for Oregon State in 2015. How the Beavers even managed to win two games is truly beyond me. Connor Hamlett and Sean Mannion started every game. Garrett Weinreich was the original starting LG. He suffered a knee injury in the very first game and did not start again. He seemed to be nearing full health at the end of the year. After Andersen was hired, it was announced that Weinreich was medically retiring. (Too many linemen!) Grant Bays was the original starting RG. He under-performed and was replaced by Fred Lauina. Sapolu took over his spot before Sapolu was lost for the year. Despite not being injured during the season, after Andersen was hired, it was announced that Bays was medically retiring. (Too many linemen!) Roman Sapolu entered the season as the third-string center. After it was announced that Seumalo would not play in 2014, Sapolu was promoted to second-string. Sapolu replaced Weinreich at LG after Weinreich was injured. Bays was benched before the California game for under-performing. Fred Lauina was promoted to starting LG and Sapolu moved to RG. Sapolu started to begin the 2013 season but suffered a foot injury in the Hawai'i game (game 2) that ended his season. Sapolu suffered a neck injury in his first game at RG in 2014 and chose to medically retire. Oregon State lost Hamlett and Mannion to graduation. Sapolu medically retired. Andersen ran off Bays and Weinreich. Anderson was not a starter. While very talented backups, neither Bays, Sapolu, nor Weinreich was a legitimate OL starter. Oregon State returned all nine starters plus Seumalo. Bays and Weinreich were casualties of Gary "Captain Queeg" Andersen. (Too many linemen!) This is probably an annoying conversation to everyone, so you can tune it out if desired. I choose to believe that Bays and Weinreich lost their starting positions mostly due to health and not poor performance. This bears out as they never played another snap on any team, as far as I know. You believe Andersen ran them out, I do not agree with that position. The point was the preferred returning starters would have included these 2 players. We both agree with what happened with Sapolu, who was the preferred starter until injury. The official records by Oregon State show that Anderson started the San Diego State, California, and Washington games. Ortiz started the Hawai'i game, and my memory serves that Anderson was not ready to go yet from his knee injury.
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Post by blackbug on Nov 2, 2017 11:02:04 GMT -8
Please see the bold for players that started and did not return. You do not have to be a senior for this to happen. The truer number of seniors that started and graduated is 4. You missed Anderson and Sapolu. The confusion is found in that 3 of the starters were actually lost in the midst of the 2014 season due to injury and never returned. So apparently you are saying only 9 of our 17 starters returned? If you count up all the starters from 2014 on offense, I guess the number is probably at least 17. I am guessing this is what you mean. This is why I was trying to separate those that have starting experience due to injury from those that were the preferred starter. So the answer is probably, yes.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Nov 2, 2017 11:12:29 GMT -8
So apparently you are saying only 9 of our 17 starters returned? If you count up all the starters from 2014 on offense, I guess the number is probably at least 17. I am guessing this is what you mean. This is why I was trying to separate those that have starting experience due to injury from those that were the preferred starter. So the answer is probably, yes. From what I've read, OSU had the same starting lineup on the OL the last 5 games. I consider them all viable "starters". They all returned. You are taking guys who only played a few games as starters and throwing them out from the number 12 and pretending that we didn't have many starters returning.
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Post by blackbug on Nov 2, 2017 11:15:25 GMT -8
If you count up all the starters from 2014 on offense, I guess the number is probably at least 17. I am guessing this is what you mean. This is why I was trying to separate those that have starting experience due to injury from those that were the preferred starter. So the answer is probably, yes. From what I've read, OSU had the same starting lineup on the OL the last 5 games. I consider them all viable "starters". They all returned. You are taking guys who only played a few games as starters and throwing them out from the number 12 and pretending that we didn't have many starters returning. The starting lineup changed some in the last 5 games of 2014, that is just not true.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Nov 2, 2017 11:45:18 GMT -8
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Nov 2, 2017 13:01:11 GMT -8
Your argument appears to be degenerating from an actual argument to a technical argument. Oregon State's graduating seniors on offense were Tyler Anderson, Connor Hamlett, Sean Mannion, Iona Prichard, and Jacob Wark. You make no argument that Prichard and Wark were starters, because they were not. I can find no instance in which Tyler Anderson started a single game in 2014. He had nine touches all year. Your putting him in your list tends to undercut everyone else on your list. His loss was catastrophic for Oregon State in 2015. How the Beavers even managed to win two games is truly beyond me. Connor Hamlett and Sean Mannion started every game. Garrett Weinreich was the original starting LG. He suffered a knee injury in the very first game and did not start again. He seemed to be nearing full health at the end of the year. After Andersen was hired, it was announced that Weinreich was medically retiring. (Too many linemen!) Grant Bays was the original starting RG. He under-performed and was replaced by Fred Lauina. Sapolu took over his spot before Sapolu was lost for the year. Despite not being injured during the season, after Andersen was hired, it was announced that Bays was medically retiring. (Too many linemen!) Roman Sapolu entered the season as the third-string center. After it was announced that Seumalo would not play in 2014, Sapolu was promoted to second-string. Sapolu replaced Weinreich at LG after Weinreich was injured. Bays was benched before the California game for under-performing. Fred Lauina was promoted to starting LG and Sapolu moved to RG. Sapolu started to begin the 2013 season but suffered a foot injury in the Hawai'i game (game 2) that ended his season. Sapolu suffered a neck injury in his first game at RG in 2014 and chose to medically retire. Oregon State lost Hamlett and Mannion to graduation. Sapolu medically retired. Andersen ran off Bays and Weinreich. Anderson was not a starter. While very talented backups, neither Bays, Sapolu, nor Weinreich was a legitimate OL starter. Oregon State returned all nine starters plus Seumalo. Bays and Weinreich were casualties of Gary "Captain Queeg" Andersen. (Too many linemen!) This is probably an annoying conversation to everyone, so you can tune it out if desired. I choose to believe that Bays and Weinreich lost their starting positions mostly due to health and not poor performance. This bears out as they never played another snap on any team, as far as I know. You believe Andersen ran them out, I do not agree with that position. The point was the preferred returning starters would have included these 2 players. We both agree with what happened with Sapolu, who was the preferred starter until injury. The official records by Oregon State show that Anderson started the San Diego State, California, and Washington games. Ortiz started the Hawai'i game, and my memory serves that Anderson was not ready to go yet from his knee injury. As far as I can tell, Bays was never listed as injured. Bays started the year at RG, but he was demoted partway through the season in favor of Fred Lauina and Sapolu. From all indications, Bays was demoted because Lauina and Sapolu were outplaying him. After Sapolu was injured, Gavin Andrews took over at RG. Bays backed up Lauina, Mitchell, and Andrews. Bays never missed a game. Sapolu was a third-string center. He was only a "preferred starter" after Seumalo was announced as done for the year and Garret Weinreich got hurt. By the end of the year, Fred Lauina had passed both him and Weinreich up. And Sapolu had passed up Bays and Weinreich. It would have been interesting to see who would have been the odd man out if Sapolu had stayed healthy: Andrews, Sapolu, or Dustin Stanton. Maybe someone else has some insight? Weinreich was a hard luck story. He was expected to play as a true freshman in 2012 but injured his knee in fall camp and had to have surgery, redshirting. He was still rehabbing for most of 2013 only playing in a handful of games on special teams. In 2014, he earned the starting LG spot but injured his knee again in the very first game against Portland State. He never started again and only played in one other game. Even if Bays, Sapolu, and Weinreich had not medically retired, Seumalo would have supplanted them for the final spot on the line. If I remember right, the 2015 OL had the most experience of any OL at Oregon State since at least 2006. Anderson was a specialist. He was the running fullback. He started three games over Ortiz. Even when Anderson was healthy, he was not starting for the most part. It did not really matter in 2015, because Andersen immediately eliminated the fullback position before reinstating it in 2016. Ortiz transitioned to linebacker in 2015 before transitioning back to fullback in 2016 after Andersen changed the offense. Ortiz was signed by Baltimore as an undrafted free agent as a fullback and was on the practice squad until he got hurt last month. The offense would have returned 9 (or 10, if you count FB), if Andersen had not been hired with three FBS QBs who subsequently started at Florida, Fresno State, and Iowa and Caleb Smith at TE. The defense would have been a mess, but the offense would have at least been fun to watch.
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Nov 2, 2017 15:43:49 GMT -8
Caleb Smith probably would have not returned. He had some off-field problems, which is why he didn't play in 2015.
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