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Post by seastape on Sept 2, 2019 9:53:11 GMT -8
JMHO but I think any defensive scheme involving a 3 man line without excellent DL's will struggle. If you don't have the Jimmy's and Joe's, perhaps you should change the X's and O's........ (and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night) Go Beavs!! Agreed. Every successful 3-4 defense that I have seen has had three guys on the DL who are absolute wrecking balls along with capable backups. If you can't get three guys who together have the ability to blow up the five guys on the other side of the ball, then your chances of success with a 3-4 will decline mightily. Then there are the OLBs in a 3-4, who must be a combination of sack-machine/run-stuffer DE and cover-man on TE and RBs on some pass plays. Those are also a rare breed. It's tough to get the personnel that are required for a successful 3-4 and I'm not sure that OSU can do it on a consistent basis.
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Sept 2, 2019 11:29:19 GMT -8
Thing is, I'm pretty sure that in the last couple weeks someone on the board wrote up a pretty good explanation of the 4/3 and why we didn't have the horses to run it.
We're kinda out of luck until we have the players. There's only been 1 full recruiting class so far. We've already got commitments from very good DEs so we should have good depth there the next couple of years. DT is the question I see next year. There could be some bodies already on the roster but it would be nice to stockpile like some of the big name schools can.
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Post by obf on Sept 3, 2019 13:30:21 GMT -8
I am of two minds... I agree with atownbeaver, there were a plethora of plays on Friday that left me and the folks around me scratching our heads and saying" WTF defense was that???" FWIW there were a couple offensive plays like that too, but every coach is going to have a bad play call here and there, Ffiday it was probably 50% for the defense and ALL of the third downs On the other hand I also agree with drunkandstoopidbeav, its the first game of the year, against a probable top 15 offense in the country, playing a VERY dynamic freshman who was as impressive of a revelation as Marriota was when he first came on the scene, just ask Big Jim Wilson The thing that really bothers me is the, as atown points out, seemingly random and preassigned personel groupings put on the field. It's almost like before the game the coaches randomly assigned every play of the game as base, nickel, dime etc. and also the players. "Well, it's the 18th play of the game and our chart says dime package.... I know it is third and short but.... GO DIME!" Maybe they saw Moneyball the night before and didn't realize that randomizing pitch sequences doesn't work as well for defensive play calling??? The play that stands out to me. Early in the game, still tied 10-10 IIRC, we finally have the Pokes in a third and longish, stop them and they probably attempt a longish field goal. When all of a sudden JACK COLLETTO THIRD STRING QB checks in as the sole ILB. I don;t recall him being in on any other defensive plays to this point in the game. They run a quick WR screen to the outside, Jack pursues a little late and too shallow and misses the ankle tackle.... TOUCHDOWN It was before half time, important third down, no one is tired or hurt yet.... WHY ARE THE STARTERS NOT IN THE GAME?!?!?! Want to run dime or whatever? Fine, but at least run it with the first string fellas! It's like they wanted to be cute and gets some style points? Not only that but the defense lined up 4 yards off the ball, in a quick strike offense thats basically turning a 3rd and 6 (or whatever it was) into a 3rd and 2 before the play even starts! Still all that said I am not ready to fire the whole defensive staff, if nothing else because I DID see improvement in the TALENT, and their next recruiting class is also (at least on paper) quite good. Get enough talent and the coaching almost doesn't matter I REALLY need to see some major improvement on saturday against Hawaii.... OkSt was way more talented, and our defense was going to give up points and yards and we will give up points and yards against Hawaii, but for the love of God, I at least want to see there is some sort of cogent PLAN!
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Post by spudbeaver on Sept 3, 2019 13:32:09 GMT -8
Thing is, I'm pretty sure that in the last couple weeks someone on the board wrote up a pretty good explanation of the 4/3 and why we didn't have the horses to run it. We're kinda out of luck until we have the players. There's only been 1 full recruiting class so far. We've already got commitments from very good DEs so we should have good depth there the next couple of years. DT is the question I see next year. There could be some bodies already on the roster but it would be nice to stockpile like some of the big name schools can. Ha! Before that someone on the board wrote up a pretty good explanation of the 3/4 and why we didn't have the horses to run it! Now what???
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Post by obf on Sept 3, 2019 13:34:46 GMT -8
JMHO but I think any defensive scheme involving a 3 man line without excellent DL's will struggle. If you don't have the Jimmy's and Joe's, perhaps you should change the X's and O's........ (and I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night) Go Beavs!! Agreed. Every successful 3-4 defense that I have seen has had three guys on the DL who are absolute wrecking balls along with capable backups. If you can't get three guys who together have the ability to blow up the five guys on the other side of the ball, then your chances of success with a 3-4 will decline mightily. Then there are the OLBs in a 3-4, who must be a combination of sack-machine/run-stuffer DE and cover-man on TE and RBs on some pass plays. Those are also a rare breed. It's tough to get the personnel that are required for a successful 3-4 and I'm not sure that OSU can do it on a consistent basis. For what it's worth.... I thought the DL actually played pretty well on Saturday, not all world, but good enough to generate a few more punts. As per usual it was impossibel for us to contain a mobile QB (that's on the LB and coahces) and some of the defensive play calls were just bizaree... Elu, Jordan, Isaiah, LaMone, Cody Anderson, I saw them all make good plays, and they were, IMHO, quite a bit better than the drek we saw at the end of last year... I was a little disappointed in our LB and quite disappointed in our DB, but mostly disappointed in our scheme. Not base (3-4, 4-3, 5-2, 11-0, whatever), but the actual strategy. Lining up 4 yards off the LOS some plays, right over teh ball on others, LB lined up a full TEN YARDS of the LOS, on short yardage downs, it was just strange... Of all the defensive groups on Saturday DL was the one I was MOST encouraged by...
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Post by drunkandstoopidbeav on Sept 3, 2019 14:26:42 GMT -8
Thing is, I'm pretty sure that in the last couple weeks someone on the board wrote up a pretty good explanation of the 4/3 and why we didn't have the horses to run it. We're kinda out of luck until we have the players. There's only been 1 full recruiting class so far. We've already got commitments from very good DEs so we should have good depth there the next couple of years. DT is the question I see next year. There could be some bodies already on the roster but it would be nice to stockpile like some of the big name schools can. Ha! Before that someone on the board wrote up a pretty good explanation of the 3/4 and why we didn't have the horses to run it! Now what??? That was my point. We don't have the horses to run either system, yet. Kinda sucks, I'm hoping that improves each year.
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Post by grackle on Sept 4, 2019 6:42:14 GMT -8
Niner clearly made major mistakes in a number of his initial hires.
Smith may be a lot of things, but one of them isn't stupid. My guess is that he is already considering changes in his defensive staffing.
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Post by Henry Skrimshander on Sept 4, 2019 9:16:52 GMT -8
Niner clearly made major mistakes in a number of his initial hires. Which ones?
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Post by ochobeavo on Sept 4, 2019 9:26:04 GMT -8
Niner clearly made major mistakes in a number of his initial hires. Which ones? Canham. Niner totally whiffed on Canham.
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Post by mbabeav on Sept 4, 2019 9:45:47 GMT -8
Wrong question being asked here - the question really is, do WE have what it takes as fans to support, as an institution to make a commitment.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Sept 4, 2019 12:52:57 GMT -8
Wrong question being asked here - the question really is, do WE have what it takes as fans to support, as an institution to make a commitment.
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Post by wilkyisdashiznit on Sept 4, 2019 13:57:58 GMT -8
My only caveat to the "1 year" mantra... yes, we don't yet have the players and depth. But, Tibs has consistently shown the inability to put players in positions to have success. You do not have to have Bama talent to actually line up and scheme to not give the opposition huge advantages. There were at least 2 dozen times that just by alignment OkSt had the defense completely outmanned. There were times players of any talent level could not have succeeded. Run game... edges and inside... passing game... especially to the flat/outside... are atrocious. Run a 3-4, an Okie Bear, a 4-3 Monster rover... I don't care, but pick a segment and STOP it. Force the opposition to be one dimensional. It really isn't rocket science. KISS methodology... simplify, allow players to think less, play with more aggression. Right now, it again looks like we over scheme and players are slow/reactive vs being aggressive. If you can sit in the stands and see the D alignment is so bad that there is every chance of a huge play there needs to be a change. First, in philosophy... quit over coaching... ALIGN, ASSIGN, EXECUTE... do more with less. Aggression and great tackling is missing. Can't do that if you're thinking and reactive. If players are misaligning on a regular basis then coaches need to simplify. It's on these coaches to put whatever talent they have in the best schemes to succeed, and that ain't happening. If it continues thru 2019, Tibs has to go as JS has zero chance to succeed with a defense that is so poorly designed and implemented. One call in particular is driving me completely nuts. This was on Hubbard big run straight up the middle for a TD. our defense? Addison Gumbs, an OLB, was the ONLY LB IN THE BOX AND WAS IN A SPY ROLE ON THE QB. Snap happens, Addison shys to the the QB side. QB obviously reads there is literally nobody there, Hubbard is straight up the A gap to pay dirt, with Gumbs immediately being sealed off by the guard. Doesn't have a prayer of making that play. Have two ILBs in the box on that play... like is your f%#*ing base defense... Hubbard is at least hit within a yard or two of the LOS. I about completely lost it on that one. The down and distance and situation in NO f%#*ING WAY demanded an empty box dime package. I am not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water. Okie St. is a very good offense... but this is gonna be another real long season if we can't come up with a better, more consistent defense play calling. We have enough players that we could have an okayish defense. nothing amazing. but good enough to get off the field every once and awhile on 3rd down. On Hubbard's 53-yard run up the middle for the touchdown (his lone touchdown run of more than six yards), Gumbs did not appear to be in the game. The defense appears to be a 2-4-5 or something of that variety. 2nd and 8. 38-23 Oklahoma State early in the third quarter. Still a game Elu Aydon lined up at NT. Cody Anderson lined up at DE. From East-to-West, the backers appear to be Hamilcar Rashed Jr., Shemar Smith, Doug Taumoelau, and John McCartan. The deep man was Omar Hicks-Onu. Hicks-Onu looked completely lost and never got set, moving out of the play pre-snap before determining that he lined up on the wrong side of the field and being too slow/out of position to recover. Oklahoma State ran a zero-tight set, which can cause confusion to lousy 3-4 linebackers, because the ILBs do not know where to line up. Smith looked lost pre-snap, which is crucial, because Smith was supposed to account for Hubbard. Rashed was trying to tell him where to set up. Rashed was supposed to account for the QB and did his job. The two wide receivers on the East side of the formation ran a fake screen. The slot on the West side of the formation did the same. The wideout on the far left hand side of the formation ran a deep out. This took three of the defensive backs completely out of the play. Hicks-Onu took himself out of the play. Nashon Wright had a chance to recover in time but was a step too late to make the play. He still was closer to making a play than Hicks-Onu, which should not have happened, since the middle of the field was Hicks-Onu's responsibility. Oklahoma State ran a simple zone read right into the hole where there was no DE. Rashed did his job too well. The QB diagnosed the play correctly and handed off to Hubbard. Rashed ended up not being blocked and taking himself out of the play. Both backers on the West side of the line blitzed with the LG and LT handling the pair. Aydon chose the wrong A gap, which sprung the play. The RG ended up dispatching him and the RT handled Anderson. Despite some confusion pre-snap, Smith appeared to be close to the correct position. However, he took a bad angle and wound up getting blocked by the C. Hicks-Onu also took a bad angle and got beat badly. Wright was too out-of-position/slow to recover from originally biting on his man's route. 53 yards later, Hubbard strolled into the end zone after not being touched. 45-23 Oklahoma State with 7:54 left in the third.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2019 14:45:52 GMT -8
One call in particular is driving me completely nuts. This was on Hubbard big run straight up the middle for a TD. our defense? Addison Gumbs, an OLB, was the ONLY LB IN THE BOX AND WAS IN A SPY ROLE ON THE QB. Snap happens, Addison shys to the the QB side. QB obviously reads there is literally nobody there, Hubbard is straight up the A gap to pay dirt, with Gumbs immediately being sealed off by the guard. Doesn't have a prayer of making that play. Have two ILBs in the box on that play... like is your f%#*ing base defense... Hubbard is at least hit within a yard or two of the LOS. I about completely lost it on that one. The down and distance and situation in NO f%#*ING WAY demanded an empty box dime package. I am not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water. Okie St. is a very good offense... but this is gonna be another real long season if we can't come up with a better, more consistent defense play calling. We have enough players that we could have an okayish defense. nothing amazing. but good enough to get off the field every once and awhile on 3rd down. On Hubbard's 53-yard run up the middle for the touchdown (his lone touchdown run of more than six yards), Gumbs did not appear to be in the game. The defense appears to be a 2-4-5 or something of that variety. 2nd and 8. 38-23 Oklahoma State early in the third quarter. Still a game Elu Aydon lined up at NT. Cody Anderson lined up at DE. From East-to-West, the backers appear to be Hamilcar Rashed Jr., Shemar Smith, Doug Taumoelau, and John McCartan. The deep man was Omar Hicks-Onu. Hicks-Onu looked completely lost and never got set, moving out of the play pre-snap before determining that he lined up on the wrong side of the field and being too slow/out of position to recover. Oklahoma State ran a zero-tight set, which can cause confusion to lousy 3-4 linebackers, because the ILBs do not know where to line up. Smith looked lost pre-snap, which is crucial, because Smith was supposed to account for Hubbard. Rashed was trying to tell him where to set up. Rashed was supposed to account for the QB and did his job. The two wide receivers on the East side of the formation ran a fake screen. The slot on the West side of the formation did the same. The wideout on the far left hand side of the formation ran a deep out. This took three of the defensive backs completely out of the play. Hicks-Onu took himself out of the play. Nashon Wright had a chance to recover in time but was a step too late to make the play. He still was closer to making a play than Hicks-Onu, which should not have happened, since the middle of the field was Hicks-Onu's responsibility. Oklahoma State ran a simple zone read right into the hole where there was no DE. Rashed did his job too well. The QB diagnosed the play correctly and handed off to Hubbard. Rashed ended up not being blocked and taking himself out of the play. Both backers on the West side of the line blitzed with the LG and LT handling the pair. Aydon chose the wrong A gap, which sprung the play. The RG ended up dispatching him and the RT handled Anderson. Despite some confusion pre-snap, Smith appeared to be close to the correct position. However, he took a bad angle and wound up getting blocked by the C. Hicks-Onu also took a bad angle and got beat badly. Wright was too out-of-position/slow to recover from originally biting on his man's route. 53 yards later, Hubbard strolled into the end zone after not being touched. 45-23 Oklahoma State with 7:54 left in the third.
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Post by giantkillers83 on Sept 4, 2019 18:06:35 GMT -8
Wrong question being asked here - the question really is, do WE have what it takes as fans to support, as an institution to make a commitment. Actually... I think THATS wrong question.... I think real question is.... Does OSU want to support and fund a competitive football team ?.... one that could go to Rose Bowl at least ??...... Fact is .... OSU’s athletic budget is higher than many schools in PAC. And nation. That’s not the problem. The problem is the amount of that budget dedicated to football. It’s declined significantly since 2001. I’m not going to post the actual numbers.... they are on other sites and not mine nor any other orange colored Beav fan. Props go to OSUProf posting independent numbers. I’m sure many here are familiar with these numbers. The problem isn’t fan support and donations... that’s a symptom of the disease. The core illness is the administrative support and lack thereof. They can claim otherwise, but numbers don’t lie.
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Post by Judge Smails on Sept 4, 2019 18:34:07 GMT -8
Wrong question being asked here - the question really is, do WE have what it takes as fans to support, as an institution to make a commitment. Actually... I think THATS wrong question.... I think real question is.... Does OSU want to support and fund a competitive football team ?.... one that could go to Rose Bowl at least ??...... Fact is .... OSU’s athletic budget is higher than many schools in PAC. And nation. That’s not the problem. The problem is the amount of that budget dedicated to football. It’s declined significantly since 2001. I’m not going to post the actual numbers.... they are on other sites and not mine nor any other orange colored Beav fan. Props go to OSUProf posting independent numbers. I’m sure many here are familiar with these numbers. The problem isn’t fan support and donations... that’s a symptom of the disease. The core illness is the administrative support and lack thereof. They can claim otherwise, but numbers don’t lie. [ If money was the only answer shouldn’t we have just faced the defending National Champion? Pickens spends even more money than phil on their program and it hasn’t made them elite.
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